I know lances were used in jousts and the like, and in fiction they’re used in real combat all the time, but it seems to me that a foot soldier would have an exceptionally easy time avoiding a lance attack. Just wait until the last moment, slide to one side, and put your sword into the horse’s body or the leg of the rider as he passes. There’s no way anyone could move a lance quickly enough to hit a fast-moving target.
Were lances ever used in real combat? Does the technique I described not work for some reason, or were lances only used against opposing cavalry?
Even assuming that you could, in ideal situations, dodge a lance, you’re forgetting that in a battle, you couldn’t slide on the side, because there are other soldiers on both sides, and anyway, even if you could, there’s also another rider with another lance on your right and a third one on your left.
Battles involve a lot of people. What you’re seeing coming at you isn’t a lone lance, but a forest of them heading your way.
However, you seem to be saying that even dodging one lance would be difficult. How tricky can it reasonably be? Horses aren’t exactly known for turning on a dime, and lances are long, heavy and ponderous. If I were standing in the middle of a field with a short sword and were attacked by a single rider with a lance, I don’t think the other guy would stand a chance.
Cavalry charges were maximally effective with the armoured horses galloping literally flank to flank, and foot defence was maximally effective literally shoulder to shoulder. There was no room to dodge until the ranks had broken up, and then the mounted man at arms would indeed replace the lance with a sword, flail or other hand weapon.
I wouldn’t know if it were difficult or not, but I won’t assume it would be necessarily as easy as it seems to you. I’m generally warry of “It would be so easy to just…” comments.
A lone trained raider won’t have that much a hard time having his horse suddenly changing direction. I’m not a lifelong trained rider, and I can do that. His lance would be long, and moving it slightly, he could probably hit you nevertheless if you just slided to the right or left. He’s quicker than you, being on horseback, and has a way longer reach. If he’s seeing he’s not going to hit you, he could just gallop out of your way and come back charging again. He can choose when and how to attack you and you have to hope he will make a mistake and put himself and/or his horse within your reach. I hope you have good nerves, too.
To sum up, I don’t know for sure what would be the most likely result of such a fight, but I wouldn’t necessarily bet on the lone infantryman with a short sword in such a situation.
Medival lances were balanced so that the center of gravity was closer to the rider’s hand than the tip, otherwise they would be too difficult to hold and control. This means that a small movement at the base of the lance translates into a large movement at the tip, with relatively little effort. The effective cone that the lance can hit is probably larger than you think. Also, consider that a knight on a barded warhorse constitutes a thousand pounds of flesh and metal bearing down on you at a full gallop. This is an intimidating sight. Even if the lance misses you, the knight can still try to trample you, direct the horse to kick, hit you with his shield, or just wheel around for another pass.
It’s always so easy to just side step things. I always hear that, typically from people who have never studied the situation in a historical context, and instead rely on movies and fantasy books to inform them.
As sturmhauke mentioned, lances were well balanced and relatively maneuverable weapons in the hands of an experienced rider. They are also not all made equally, with some designed for the tournament, and others for the field of battle all with varying qualities.
I know I wouldn’t want to be in the position of trying to dodge a knight’s lance on foot, it is not an impossible thing, but the knight has the obvious advantage.
Reminds me also of the usual nonse I hear from some asian martial artists about how fighting without a weapon against someone with a weapon is no disadvantage at all. :roll:
I imagine that lances were devastating on the battlefield. Even if one footman can evade the lance of one horseman, a group of a hundred footmen being charged by a formation of forty lancers is in serious trouble. It’s a lot like how archers didn’t bother to aim at individual soldiers during pitched battles; they fired volleys, and many if not most of the arrows hit someone.
Lance armed cavalry was used well up into the modern era. The last incident I know of in which they were actually used in combat was in the Sudan in , I think, the 1890s. Winston Churchill participated in that as a junior lieutenant in a lancer regiment. I have seen photographs of lance armed French cavalry and Russian Cossacks in WWI. The center regiment in the front line of the Charge of the Light Brigade was a lancer unit. Napoleon I’s cavalry included numerous lance armed formations – it was lancers that cut up the Union and Household Cavalry brigades at Waterloo after the British cavalry over extended after breaking up the first great French assault on the Anglo-Dutch army. Modern musketry pretty well made lance units, and all heavy cavalry massed charge tactics, ineffective.
Lance armed cavalry was ideal for pursuit of a broken and retreating enemy. Unlike a saber, a lance could easily reach and impale a prone man.
Lance attacks were very effective. Cavalrymen could control a lnace quite well; it used to be a popular sport to hunt wild pigs from horseback with a lance. Infantry could defend against a lance charge - basically by getting bigger lances and forming a tight crowd. Then the cavalry would charge at full speed and it was a contest between who panicked first; the horses or the peasants.
I’m sure Kinthalis didn’t mean it as a personal attack. It’s just that, like he said, anyone who trains in anything related to combat is used to hearing “how easy it is” from people who’ve never done it. We hear it from untrained and undertrained people all the time, and it’s actually quite fun to disabuse them of the notion if you can get them to try. I train in those asian martial arts he mentions, and really enjoy showing people what a realistic attack looks like when they think they’re capable of disarming an armed attacker. Some people are, but they’re generally not the ones who brag about it, and they’ve trained long enough to know it’s not easy. The attempts can be quite comical while they come to the realization that they can’t move like “that guy” in the movie (who probably had wires on his hips and was fighting a choreographed “battle”).
Think about your strategy for a minute. A rider is bearing down on you with a shield on one side and a lance on the other. He’s not frozen in place, so he can adjust both the horse and the lance if you move early. If you duck to his non-lance side, you either go low or he hits you with his shield. If you duck to his lance side, he can probably adjust the tip faster than you can move. If you don’t go far enough in one direction or the other, the horse tramples you. You might have a chance if you stood still, waiting for him to come, and then dove as far as you possibly could to his non-lance side at the last possible minute and hit the ground flat. If you move early, he’ll steer the horse to trample you. If you don’t go flat, he’ll hit you with his shield. If you move late, he lances or tramples you. If you time this just perfectly, you avoid the attack but are in no position to counterattack. At the very best, you can play defense and maybe sprint toward the trees while he wheels around for another pass. Maybe if you have a weapon and time things just perfectly, you can deflect the lance, move outside it, and still be in range to attack the rider, but that would be very tricky timing against a lance that is not only moving very quickly but can adjust its aim. Your margin for error is essentially zero.
It was my understanding that well-trained and disciplined infantry could withstand and defeat a heavy cavalry charge. The catch being that in most places and through most of history, the well-trained and disciplined infantry was very much the exception rather than the rule. If the defending infantry panicked, then the attackers would win easily, and a heavy cavalry charge is a very effective means of causing the defenders to panic. Is this an accurate summation?
Didn’t Robert the Bruce (future King of Scotland) evade a lance thrust at the last possible moment and then dash his attacker’s brains out with his axe, breaking his weapon’s shaft in the process? I hope I didn’t just dream up this scenario – I remember reading about it somewhere. Perhaps it was the Battle of Bannockburn – an individual combat prior to the actual beginning of the battle. I can’t recall any more specifics (naturally – my brain, like Robert the Bruce’s unfortunate opponent, is turning to mush!), although it does occur to me that he was on horseback at the time.
Does any one know if my memory is accurate about this feat?
Question not worthy of a new thread: how in the world did the lancer get the lancee off his lance once he skewered him? Must’ve been quite a sight to see a calvary lancer run a guy through at full speed, tell the horse, 'Whoaaaaa, Silverware!!!" and then slowly back up, trying to scrape the body off the lance with the floor/his boot while everyone around him is trying to hack at him as he did this.
My WAG: the lance either broke on the first guy, or they just dropped it and busted out the swords.
It’s also worth mentioning that many of the warhorses used by the knights were bred and trained to become quite large. It’d be like finding yourself needing to dodge a lancer coming at you in a Ford Ranger.
Also, once you get the knight off his horse, what then? If he gets pinned by his horse, then you might have him at your mercy, but if he’s an experienced horseman, he might know how to throw himself clear of the horse. Now you have a heavily armed, heavily armored man who is quite well trained and experienced in fighting with said armor and weapons, and who know thinks you are responsible for trashing his Ford Ranger.
Your memory is quite sound. In a skirmish before the battle the English knight Henry de Bohun (pronounced Boone, if my memory is accurate) charged the Bruce with his warhorse and lance; the Bruce, on a pony, dodged the lance at the last moment and split de Bohun’s skull with his axe. Even the English seem to have thought this was a pretty remarkable feat, which suggests dodging a skilled lance-handler really wasn’t very easy.
