Were there other christian religions besides catholicism before Martin Luther?

Factual Questions
21

M C, the cite you provided for the different reckonings of Easter is both vague and, ultimately, taken from a site written by an Evangelical Protestant. This does not invalidate his statements if they are accurate, but they do not carry much weight unless he documents those differences.

On the other hand, the next snippet quoted by your site is taken from an Orthodox site and says

So, if I find a Protestant claiming there is a dispute regarding the date of Easter (after he has thrown all the Eastern churches together in one collection, Orthodox or not), and I find an Orthodox site expressing the basic unity of the faith, I suspect that I’m going to give greater weight to the claim by the actual people under discussion.

22

Strange that no one has mentioned the Anabaptists, yet.

23

As an outsider, I am enjoying this debate over the history and differences of the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches. Just a few little suggestions:

C’mon, Dogface, is there really a need for this? This is GQ, not the pit. Insulting others doesn’t prove anything and makes your own position seem less tenable.

Argument From Authority doesn’t buy you anything either. The clear implication here is that if MC cannot specify his religious upbrining and membership, then his arguments are invalid. I don’t buy that.

However, when you’re not actively insulting MC, you do seem to have some good points. Keep at it, guys, this is getting interesting!

24

Yes, The Orthodox Church does claim unity without a single polity, but I stand by my orginal claim that they are distinct entities and more than simply national churches.

On Easter as I said before, I was wrong, they do use the same algorithms now to find the date of Easter but I believe in the past they used slightly different variations on the Julian calender.

Reepicheep, the Anabaptists appeared a short time after Martin Luther.

25

Sorry got my 1517 (95 These) and the 1525 (Switzerland) mixed up.

26

Dogface, we will keep our discussion civil. This is GQ.

This is not a warning; just a note.

Thank you for your cooperation.

-xash
General Questions Moderator

27

Hey, here is a DIRECT QUOTE from the link you just posted:

Now, doesn’t that UTTERLY CONTRADICT YOUR DAFT AND FALSE CLAIMS regarding the “separate Church” status of the Russians and the Greeks.

Likewise, nowhere on that site does there say that there is a dispute over the date of Pascha or that there was one between the Russians and the Greeks.

28

He is repeatedly and doggedly posting and re-posting lies about my Church.

Ah, so an ignorant who simply states over and over what a Church “really” is is FAR better a source who actually is a MEMBER of that Church, eh?

29

Really? What Orthodox Hierarchs agree with your claims?

Why do you persist in claiming that you know my Church better than I do? Why do you persist in claiming that you know my Church better than the vast current of Orthodox Ecclesiology states?

Are you saying that all us Orthodox are just a pack of liars? Because that’s what it sounds like.

30

Dogface, settle down. I don’t think MC is being malicious, but rather is relying on bad sources.

The site MC linked to seems to make little to no distinction between at least three separate (big C) Churches: the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental or non-Chalcedonian Orthodox, and the Assyrian / Nestorian Church of the East. To an uninformed Western observer, the differences between these Churches may seem rather nebulous, but they are nevertheless quite distinct, with separate rites, communions, Christologies, etc.

The Eastern Orthodox Church, of which Dogface and myself are members, is quite definitely one single church, with national hierarchies. Although reference is made to the Church of Greece, the Church of Russia, etc., a more accurate rending would be the Church in Greece, Russian, etc., or the Greek/Russian Church, as in the portion of the Church that is made up of Greeks, Russians, Georgians, Serbs, or whatever. With the exception of the Old Believers and a very few Western rite parishes, the entire Eastern Orthodox Church follows the Byzantine rite. The whole Church has a common reckoning for Easter, has a common musical heritage derived from the eight tones of the Greeks, etc. Until the 1920s, all Eastern Orthodox followed the Julian calendar. The Eastern Orthodox Church is quite definitely One Church.

A better case can be made for the Oriental Orthodox communion being less one church and more a confederation of national Churches, in a way that the Eastern Orthodox are not. The Ethiopians, Copts, Syrians, and Armenians all have quite separate liturgies, rites, musical systems, histories, and even different canons of the Bible. Rather than being one Church with national hierarchies as the Eastern Orthodox are, the Oriental Orthodox are 6 national Churches united by a common rejection of Chalcedon.

With regards to parallel hierarchies, there are two main areas where this takes place: the Middle East, where the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, all of the Oriental Orthodox Churches, Assyrians, etc. have their own bishops, and the New World, where the Orthodox are organized along ethnic rather than regional boundaries, due to the historical circumstances of immigration.

I have never heard of the Greeks and the Russians having different reckonings of Easter, so I will join Dogface in asking for a cite, preferably from a scholarly or Orthodox source.

Disclaimer: the above is solely based on my own knowledge, and I do not claim to speak for any church. I am a layman in the Russian Church Abroad, under the omophor of His Grace Bishop Gabriel of Eastern America and New York.

31

The Hussites, named after Czech heretic Jan (John) Hus, predated the Luther-led Protestant Reformation by over a century.

32

At some point (perhaps in a new thread), would you two Orthodox be willing to address the reasons (other than sheer inertia) behind the multiplicity of Orthodox polities in America??

33

No, I’m trying to be offensive, there’s no need to take everything as a personal attack.

As I cannot find the source about different dates for Easter (the Finnish Orthodox church does usually have a different date for Easter) I’ll withdraw the claim, but the two churches do operate on different calenders, the Gregorian-based new Julian calender (Greece)and the old Julian calender (Russia).

But I still stand behind my claim that the two churches are more than national churches, for example most of the Slavonic-rite churches recognise the primacy of the bishop of Moscow, whereas the Greek-rite churches do not.

34

doh!!!

*I’m not trying to be offensive.

35

Ah, but there are a notable number of Old-Calendarist groups in Greece, who refused to accept the calendar change in the 1920s. As well, the OCA, who are derived from the Russian Church and still considered to be a part of it by most Orthodox, largely follows the new calendar. Finland is a rather special case: it follows the Western Paschalion because it would lose state funding if it didn’t, and has been severely criticized for choosing official recognition over celebrating Pascha with the rest of Orthodoxy.

The Patriarch of Moscow is given primacy as the head of the Russian Church. He has no authority outside of his Church. I’m not sure exactly what your talking about wrt the Greek churches not recognising Moscow’s primacy. The Patriarch of Constantinople is given primacy of honor among all the Patriarchs, and then going down the list of primacy, there comes Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem. Moscow is 5th down the list. Yes, Moscow was considered to be the “Third Rome,” but Moscow is still universally considered to have less primacy than Constantinople (who would be considered to have less primacy than Rome, if the Roman Catholic church ever returned to Orthodoxy). When it comes to rankings of primacy after the remaining Patriarchates of the old Pentarchy, the rankings go in order of when each Church received autocephaly or complete independance.

36

There were the Waldensians, too: like the Hussites, they were pre-Luther protestants. A few of them still exist.

37

Terminology: “The Great Schism” refers not to the Protestant Reformation begun by Luther in 1517 (and joined later by Calvin, Zwingli, and Henry VIII). Rather, it refers either to the original split between the Church of Rome and the eastern orthodox church(es) OR to the temporary split in the Catholic Church between the papacies in Rome and Avignon from 1378-1417.

–Cliffy

38

The Finns are actually under Constantinople. They are permitted to have a local variance as an act of pastoral economy. However, this is a unique exception granted by higher Hierarchical authority.

Serbia: Recognizes neither as their primate. Serbia is autocephalous.
Bulgaria: Recognizes neither as their primate. Bulgaria is autocephalous.
Georgia: Recognizes neither as their primate. Georgia is autocephalous.
Poland (I think they’re Slavonic): Recognizes neither as primate. Poland is autocephalous.
Czech and Slovak: Recognizes neither as primate. Yup, autocephalous.
So your claim is simply false. All the above Slavonic jurisdictions recognize neither Moscow nor Constantinople as their Primates. Likewise, all of them recognize the legitimacy of BOTH the Patriarchs of Moscow and of Constantinople. Instead, they are all autocephalous, with their own Primates. Only Russia or dioceses appenant upon Russia look to Moscow as their Primate.

Furthermore, contrary to the lies spread by the West, the Patriarch of Constantinople has never been some kind of “Eastern Pope” with monarchical power of the Orthodox. All Patriarchical sees are equal. Constantinople merely has a seat of honor, but with no greater power nor authority than the others.

39

“Spread by the West”? I’ve never even heard this claim made by anyone, so I doubt that it qualifies as “lies spread by the West.” There may be an occasional author who has not done enough homework who may have made that statement (although, as I note, I have never encountered it), but you seem to be pretty free with your accusations of “lying.” You might want to narrow down just who is supposed to have made this claim.

40

i would like to see some cites from dogface.