So, you’re unaware that the Russian troops are there as part of a treaty with Ukraine, because of Russia’s large military bases in the Crimea? That shows that you’re ignorant about the whole issue.
You know perfectly well that no referendum would happen at all if Ukrainian forces loyal to the present Kiev regime were in control of the region. Crimea’s Russian natives would be given no choice but to remain under Ukrainian nationalist rule.
I am not saying the vote, if it happens, will be free, I am saying that if it were free, the pro-Russian side would probably win anyway, so if it is takes place under Russian guns, that probably makes no difference to the outcome. The fact that the Russian commitment to freedom and democracy is questionable is really beside the point here. Putin’s interests just happen to align more closely with those of the majority of the inhabitants of Crimea than do those of the Ukrainian nationalists in control in Kiev. Unless there are further radical regime changes in Kiev, Ukraine is not going to come out of this as a shining beacon of democracy and freedom either. Indeed, it it is likely to wind up a good deal worse than Russia is now.
There are really no “good guys” in the current situation, and Obama is playing strategic realpolitik (which means yes, he is being hypocritical) just as much as Putin is.
That’s what’s called a strawman argument. I said that using force to overthrow the government is generally considered a crime. Not that it’s never happened.
For example, if I went to DC and started shooting up the White House, I’d get arrested. Because it’s a crime.
People do lots of things. The fact that they do them doesn’t make them law. “Might makes right” is a saying, not a law.
What is the “process for secession”?
He highlighted your “the legitimate [government], not the fascist overthrowers”. Who are the current fascist members of the government?
Only about 60% of all Crimeans are ethnic Russians. After this referendum should some of the parts of the Crimean where the population is predominantly Ukrainian have a referendum to rejoin the Ukraine?
Lol, the government gets to choose if it’s a good reason, follow history much?
LinusK are you unaware that force was not in fact used to overthrow Yanukovych? There were long, aggressive protests that killed almost no one (maybe no one, I’m just not 100% sure on that.) Then Yanukovych got tired of it and some 60-70 protesters were killed in an intense crackdown. This immediately resulted in widespread international condemnation and even more erosion of support for Yanukovych within Ukraine’s Parliament. The West then helped broker a deal whereby Yanukovych made some concessions and also agreed to hold new elections earlier than would otherwise be scheduled.
However, to the protesters once Yanukovych had blood on his hands, they weren’t disbanding their protests until he was out of power. They continued to protest–without killing anyone, by the way (Yanukovych cannot say the same), and then the Parliament of Ukraine voted to remove Yanukovych from power. He was not forced from power by physical force, it was the equivalent of a U.S. President being impeached by a vote of the legislature. Later some members of the protesting faction went through his palace he had built with $75m of ill gotten money, but he had already been legally removed from power at that point.
So…I’m confused about why you keep repeating the incorrect assertion that a government was toppled by force in Ukraine, that didn’t happen. An executive was removed by the legislature.
Now that we’ve established Yanukovych was removed neither by force or via some sort of “coup”, we can also note that Crimea’s parliament building was occupied by armed men from Russia. Then new Crimean parliamentary leadership was selected friendly to Russia, and that parliament then voted to break away from Ukraine and scheduled a referendum in like 10 days. Meanwhile the region filled up with Russian troops who have shut down all independent media in Crimea, and shut off Crimea from the rest of Ukraine. Since many of these men are basically running around without uniforms Russia h as maintained a lot of plausible deniability about their actions, but effectively they’ve been going around violently suppressing any dissent, beating up anyone who opposes them and etc. It’s true SA, Hitleresque style politics where you win elections by beating the shit out of people who don’t vote the way you want. If you can’t see why we might condemn that while not condemning a properly elected Parliamnet in Kiev removing the President, then I’m not sure there’s much reasonable grounds to discuss the issue.
If they would like. Or they could become independent.
Not to mention that those opposed to secession and to the referendum who are being rapidly bundled out of view of the international reporters. Not to mention the UN observer who was forced out of Crimea. Not to mention the CNN reporters who were ordered to leave the region.
Yeah, really democratic.
Crimea was an autonomous region of Ukraine precisely because it wasn’t all that happy about being part of Ukraine. I strongly suspect after all the dust had cleared, Crimea, of its own free will, in the next 6-24 months probably would have moved to separate from Ukraine. You know what? I suspect Kiev probably would have let them, especially as the West probably would advise Kiev it was for the best (by the way, Crimea is an economic drain, it costs Kiev over $1.1bn a year which is big money for Ukraine–if annexed by Russia it will be the costliest region of Russia in terms of how much the rest of Russia subsidizes it per capita.) Not to mention this will probably kill off Ukrainian tourism to Crimea–the biggest source of tourists into Crimea (and it’s unlikely you’ll see a surge of Russian tourism, before all this started Russia and Crimea were on good terms and a decent number of Russians already were vacationing in Crimea, so I doubt anymore will come sufficient to replace the many Ukrainians who will no longer vacation in Crimea, in a very poor region where tourism was its biggest industry this isn’t a minor problem and means Moscow will probably have to subsidize Crimea more than Kiev did.)
But the problem is Russia didn’t allow for that, they’ve invaded with real and partisan troops to force regime change at the barrel of a gun.
It’s the equivalent of me forcing myself into your house with a gun, holding your family at gunpoint and then demanding sex from your wife and your debit card and pin code and me saying that your wife was a consensual sexual partner and you were just giving me money out of the goodness of your heart.
The protesters did not forcibly remove the president from office. That was done by the legislature. You’re missing a crucial step between protests and president gone. Plus, the protestors were the victims of violence, not the other way 'round.
On preview I see that Martin Hyde has already addressed this and in more detail.
You forgot that Yanukovych was removed while the armed protesters were occupying the Kiev government buildings. Understandable.
The proposed Crimean referendum ballot was released today. It’s here (In Russian)
http://www.rada.crimea.ua/textdoc/ru/6/act/1702pr.pdf
There’s no “status quo” option. The alternatives are either Crimea reunites with Russia or Crimea stays with Ukraine on the condition that Crimea return to their 1992 constitution.
I agree.
To get just a little in the weeds, under their constitution, it takes 75 percent of parliament to impeach the president and remove him or her from office. The removal vote got 82 percent.
They skipped over the impeachment step, so there was a literal violation of the constitution. But lots of democratic constitutions are followed in a way that’s not completely literal, certainly including that of the United
States. If we ask what’s closer to the truth – a legal democratic transition in crisis conditions, or a coup – it was a heck of a lot closer to the former.
If there was a truly free referendum, one of the options would be independence for Crimea, and that would win. The Crimean government would then lean pro-Russian, at least until Ukraine’s economy perks up. But they aren’t being given that choice.
No. The agreement allows the troops to be on Russian bases. It does not allow them to occupy the Parliament, or other government buildings, or patrol the streets outside the bases.
Yes, it’s bad enough that a hasty referendum is being throw together under questionable circumstances, but with no “independence option” it’s a total farce.
The number of otherwise reasonable people willing to jump into Putin’s lap and cuddle up to Daddy here is sort of amazing. I must have missed my daily dose of Russocentric propaganda or something.
How would it’s 1992 Constitution work?
Yeah, it’s like there’s some immunity against the need to be rational as long as you’re criticizing the US. Many of us are no fans of the US’s imperialistic endeavors over the years, and just because Putin is sticking his tongue out at The West doesn’t mean that he’s doing anything good.