Western media/Obama hypocrisy on Ukraine

[Terr]

@CarnalK

I don’t know. It’s plausible that someone in the military told him “We aren’t stopping them this time” and he fled beforehand. It all happened pretty rapidly. So rapidly that it doesn’t make a difference which building he was in.

You do understand that you need facts to argue things. Not your fantasies.

[NotfooledbyW]

@Malthus

Bringing up what the US did in Iraq - whether that was analogous or not - is a compete red herring. It is a textbook example of the tu quoque informal fallacy.

Logical Fallacy: Tu Quoque

Of course you don’t want the West’s double-standard brought into the discussion. Putin is being asked to respect borders by the people who don’t.

[RedFury]

@Gyrate

…I also like how you keep claiming that the Crimean referendum is entirely in response to the change of government in Kiev and has nothing to do with their Russian overlords (did I say “overlords”? I meant “protectors”) threatening them at gunpoint. I’m sure it will all be entirely free and fair.

:rolleyes:

Russophobia running rampant on the SDMB – facts be dammed such as NOT ONE CASUALTY THUS FAR in Crimea. “Joke,” as per usual, included. Humor, as per usual, lacking.

Meanwhile, in the real world: Iraq Death Toll Reaches 500,000 Since Start Of U.S.-Led Invasion, New Study Says

[CarnalK]

@Terr

You do understand that you need facts to argue things. Not your fantasies.

The fact is the protesters stormed the gov buildings. Fact is the governing parties fled. Fact is the opposition reneged on their interim government deal. Fact is you got nothing but hot air in reply.

[NotfooledbyW]

@Terr

Ok. Is there ANY lawful basis to the referendum at all? Ukrainian law or Crimean?

Was Crimea given as a gift to Ukraine by a Soviet Premiere a lawful basis?

[John_Mace]

@NotfooledbyW

Was Crimea given as a gift to Ukraine by a Soviet Premiere a lawful basis?

Why wouldn’t it be?

[Rick_Kitchen]

Russophobia running rampant on the SDMB – facts be dammed such as NOT ONE CASUALTY THUS FAR in Crimea. “Joke,” as per usual, included. Humor, as per usual, lacking.

Isn’t that evidence that the Russian claims of ethnic Russians being abused by Ukrainians is a lie?

Also, what about all of the pro-Ukrainian protestors in Simferopol being attacked and beaten with whips?

[Little_Nemo]

@CarnalK

Well, I don’t know if they were “behind it” but there is no doubt a lot of behind the scenes conversation happened between Western governments and the opposition. It isn’t all Jewish conspiracy theories to wonder if they did some pushing.

@CarnalK

The members that supported the government fled, the opposition either was emboldened to go further or worried about not going with the mob. Either way, that’s improper influence.

It’s amazing how you can discern the pressure of behind the scenes conversations and improper influence but somehow miss the possibility that a foreign army entering a country might also qualify as an attempt to pressure that country’s government.

[CarnalK]

@Little_Nemo

It’s amazing how you can discern the pressure of behind the scenes conversations and improper influence but somehow miss the possibility that a foreign army entering a country might also qualify as an attempt to pressure that country’s government.

I admit it’s varying levels of conjecture. But I am certainly not missing Russia’ s military pressure at all. Why don’t you be a doll and point out where I downplayed that?

[Little_Nemo]

@CarnalK

I admit it’s varying levels of conjecture. But I am certainly not missing Russia’ s military pressure at all. Why don’t you be a doll and point out where I downplayed that?

I’ll pass on the opportunity to be your doll. But to answer your question, you downplayed the Russian military presence by simply ignoring it.

Here are your posts. You have plenty to say about the protesters and Western governments. But no mention of the foreign troops in Ukraine. It’s the elephant in the room that you’re pretending isn’t there.

@CarnalK

But as I forgot, this specific Ukraine thread is about Western hypocrisy so tu quoque argument is in fact quite proper.

@CarnalK

Well the OP was restricted to hypocrisy on the Kiev vs Crimea revolts and I think it’s fair to say most Western nations and their major media outlets supported one and not the other.

As far as comparing Iraq and Crimean votes, I think there’s enough to fend off total hypocrisy charges. Firstly the allowing of international observers and secondly the vote subject matter. “Who do you want in charge” is pretty different than “would you like to give up sovereignty?”.

@CarnalK

John, my impression of the “just reporting” is that the Kiev protests really were painted in a much more heroic light.
Ymmv but I thought it was rather obvious.

Actually Steophan there is no independence choice. Either join Russia or use the 1992 constitution that explicitly stated Crimea is part of Ukraine. But I don’t speak Russian either.

@CarnalK

I read your “Interview with Dmytro Yarosh, Leader of Right Sector” article from your link vomit post. What do you think that story proved? Honestly curious.

@CarnalK

I disagree. Bringing up other under occupation elections that the West has backed is perfectly valid in a “hypocrisy” debate on this topic.

@CarnalK

As I’ve said to you before: The vote was under duress because the protestors had stormed the buildings. They could have at least waited a frigging day or two after that if they wanted the vote to appear legitimate.

@CarnalK

The fact that the government leader had fled and that the opposition suddenly all switched from voting for an interim government to impeachment is all the proof I need. Frankly, I think the presence of an armed mob occupying the government buildings puts the onus on you to show there wasn’t duress.

@CarnalK

Oh, of course, of course. Could you point it out to me though? Since, you know, that’s pretty much what happened I am curious how it was debunked

I agree it’s not the same. You see, I am in the unfortunate position of not believing either side’s bullshit on this issue. And pretending a mob taking over the governement building the day of the vote is of no importance is kind of bullshit.

Well, I don’t know if they were “behind it” but there is no doubt a lot of behind the scenes conversation happened between Western governments and the opposition. It isn’t all Jewish conspiracy theories to wonder if they did some pushing.

And sorry for the multi-split quote answer, which I usually hate seeing and doing.

@CarnalK

The members that supported the government fled, the opposition either was emboldened to go further or worried about not going with the mob. Either way, that’s improper influence. That can be the only explanation for the sudden change of plans. Why do you think they suddenly turned their back on the interim government vote of the day before?

@CarnalK

That is hilarious. Seriously, hilarious. “Oh, he ran away when the mob stormed the building. No choice but to impeach him instead.” lol.

@CarnalK

I don’t know. It’s plausible that someone in the military told him “We aren’t stopping them this time” and he fled beforehand. It all happened pretty rapidly. So rapidly that it doesn’t make a difference which building he was in.

@CarnalK

To avoid a charge of hypocrisy, the West should have publicly pressed the opposition to stick with their interim government agreement. Realpolitik-wise, not sure how smart that would have been. Both sides would have probably said “No way” for different reasons.

@CarnalK

The fact is the protesters stormed the gov buildings. Fact is the governing parties fled. Fact is the opposition reneged on their interim government deal. Fact is you got nothing but hot air in reply.

[CarnalK]

Umm, you missed a few of my posts in Cafe Society where I also didn’t condemn Russia’s invasion of Crimea.
The simple fact of the matter is that both of these “votes” are highly suspect and excuse me if you don’t think I am complaining enough about one more than the other.

[CarnalK]

@CarnalK

I agree it’s not the same. You see, I am in the unfortunate position of not believing either side’s bullshit on this issue.

From one of your quotes that you clearly didn’t read very carefully.

[Malthus]

@NotfooledbyW

Of course you don’t want the West’s double-standard brought into the discussion. Putin is being asked to respect borders by the people who don’t.

Yeah, me and my bizzare insistance on not basing one’s position on obvious informal logic fallacies.

[CarnalK]

@XT

Being skeptical is fine, though I note with some irony that you have swallowed the ‘pretending a mob taking over the governement building the day of the vote’ without rigorous skepticism.

I read that on the BBC, not Pravda, and it’s part of their Ukraine crisis timeline.