"We've evolved to be creationists"

Great Debates
201

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
I’m not sure why **lekatt ** is using that term, unless he’s using it as a catchall for the general area of this phenomenon, especially since there’s a perfectly good term for it; OBE (Out-of-Body Experience). His own initial experience seems to follow this route of experience without death.
[/QUOTE]

The term near death experience was coined by Dr Raymond Moody, in his first research book. Near death experiences usually start with an out of body experience brought on by the death of the experiencer.

202

[QUOTE=GIGObuster]
I don’t have much time but I have to say that I really distrust views of the spiritual world that are that limited. Like Carl Sagan said, there is much more wonder in science than in pseudoscience. If there are beings based on unconditional love they will approach all people, the ones having big experiences or not.

And I said this before, but this is ignored by people like you: that is supposed to be love? To not make an effort to investigate this properly because it is inconvenient? I can imagine many things that could benefit mankind by finding a proper explanation of phenomena that some see or claim to have. The point is, I do not see love when people that claim they have something special just act in the end secretively and refuse to be subject to investigation, history is filled of items that were used even if there was only a mystical explanation of them, the key however was this: they did work, more or less. Items that turned to have seemingly mundane explanations, in the long run benefit all believers or unbelievers alike.

Like for example the treatment of Malaria and other diseases, for hundreds of years it was thought that disease was coming from bad air, even an early examination of statistical information regarding cholera in England showed the data to fit with the idea that bad air from the Thames was responsible (the closest to the river, more cholera cases), however the investigator noticed that while there seemed to be a correlation it was not correct.

I can only imagine what would had happened if they would not had pressed ahead because the current explanation was good enough or if the ridicule those early researches had to suffer had been their guide. What happened was that it was found cholera had a connection with water in contact with sewage, London then invested in sewage control and the result: no more cholera. Even though then it was not known yet that cholera was caused by microscopic beings.

The countless lives saved or improved in that and other cases show to me more love than your sorry excuse why not to investigate a strange phenomenon in the proper way.
[/QUOTE]

It is at this moment being investigated by several universities research staff. At least the part that can be investigated. Thousands of people have had near death experiences and they are not that different. This is a myth that they contradict themselves. In the future it will be known by everyone that man is a spiritual being. There is no reason for alarm. There is so much fear in the physical world, and some of that fear is of the unknown.

203

[QUOTE=lekatt]

I realize this is pretty frightening stuff to many, but perhaps some will like to know.
[/QUOTE]

Meh,

That is supposed to be scary? That hand wave to explain away why a chemical gets one similar or same experiences like that of a NDE is not scary, it is pathetic.

204

[QUOTE=lekatt]
It is at this moment being investigated by several universities research staff. At least the part that can be investigated. Thousands of people have had near death experiences and they are not that different. This is a myth that they contradict themselves. In the future it will be known by everyone that man is a spiritual being. There is no reason for alarm. There is so much fear in the physical world, and some of that fear is of the unknown.
[/QUOTE]

That sounded like the reporter in Flash Gordon, I have no reason at all to fear you or your ideas. They are virtually useless.

205

[QUOTE=lekatt]
That’s fine we can stop, don’t want to cause you more alarm.
The main reason NDEs can’t be analyzed is because they are personal experiences. But some things can be studied and are being studied by research scientists, things like veridical experiences. Relax now.
[/QUOTE]
Alarm? Me? Um, no. Before you alarm me, you have to convince me it’s real, which is going to be hard, since the reality you’re trying to convince people of seems to vary wildly depending on which account you’re examining. And even then, you’re all into pushing the “God = Love” version, and the only thing even vaguely disturbing about that is the creepy spirit guides following you into the bathroom and bedroom, watching, always watching…

Realistically, I’d be fine with the assurance of a happy afterlife; I’m not a disbeliever out of a love of nihilism or anything. Heck, as religions go yours has a lot going for it; you ask little (well, nothing so far) and promise great things unconditionally. And I wasn’t kidding, I’d love to be telekinetic. Besides being really convenient it’d be fun as all get out, making stuff fly around.

The thing is, I’m not going to believe something’s real just because it sounds nice. That’s not how things work.

206

[QUOTE=lekatt]
It is at this moment being investigated by several universities research staff. At least the part that can be investigated.
[/quote]

Make up your mind, it is contradictory to say one moment they have a valid reason not be investigated and then you come with this. My point stands for the many that do not bother to investigate this properly; love for all is not really their guide.

When you don’t notice running into a contradiction, like the one pointed at a moment ago, one has to conclude that you have no ability to identify a contradiction.

207

OK fellows, we are down to two now.

I don’t care to convince you of anything. You have to do that yourself, and it won’t happen over night. It does take committment, unless you have a near death experience. I would like to help those who are struggling with fear realize it doesn’t need to happen. Those with the greatest fear will argue nay the longest. So we close now, been a good run. Thanks for the participation.

208

Is anyone here struggling with fear? Anyone?
Lekatt, you’re coming across as daring people to adopt your beliefs and falsely labelling any who decline a coward. I can almost see you with your thumbs in your armpits, flapping your elbows, and clucking like a chicken.

209

I’m afraid of heights, dogs, any vehicle on the road larger than an SUV, and small children. Does that count?

Oh, and I fear that if I have a powerful religious (or non-death) experience I’ll cave, abandon my rational mind, and become a simplistic yes-man to whatever religion happens to be nearby. I mean, how do I know I’m really rational until my antifaith is tested?

210

[QUOTE=lekatt]
The term near death experience was coined by Dr Raymond Moody, in his first research book. Near death experiences usually start with an out of body experience brought on by the death of the experiencer.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I am aware of what the term means. The point being made is that in those particular examples, there’s no evidence that they died or were close to dying. In your own experience, there’s no evidence that you were actually dead, nor did you experience any unpleasant side-effects from being dead. NDEs involve an OBE and temporary death - You didn’t die. So “Out-of-Body Experience” would be a better term to use than NDE, since by your own definition you didn’t have an NDE.

Edit; No, I don’t fear what** lekatt ** suggests. If he’s right, I honestly see nothing to fear, and in fact lots of things that would be lovely.

I suppose it’s an interesting insight into** lekatt’s** mindframe, though; admitting the other person could be right is something to fear. I hope he isn’t projecting.

211

[QUOTE=lekatt]
OK fellows, we are down to two now.

I don’t care to convince you of anything. You have to do that yourself, and it won’t happen over night. It does take committment, unless you have a near death experience. I would like to help those who are struggling with fear realize it doesn’t need to happen. Those with the greatest fear will argue nay the longest. So we close now, been a good run. Thanks for the participation.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t need to have the abducted by aliens experience to be able to talk about it. I don’t have to have either an NDE or OBE to talk about them either.

And I don’t even understand the fear part. Why would anyone even fear living beyond death? It’s not like the NDEs were scary for anyone.

212

I fear that lekatt’s obsession with NDE has exactly nothing to do with the topic of this thread. I also fear that it has just about the same to do with almost any other thread in which he posts on his favorite topic.

I also fear that I have no idea why Voyager just mentioned the Order of the British Empire. :slight_smile:

213

[QUOTE=Voyager]
I don’t need to have the abducted by aliens experience to be able to talk about it. I don’t have to have either an NDE or OBE to talk about them either.

And I don’t even understand the fear part. Why would anyone even fear living beyond death? It’s not like the NDEs were scary for anyone.
[/QUOTE]

I thought we were through with this thread. It had digressed mainly into a battle of semantics. I really liked the posting of Karl Jansen’s work as an opposition idea to near death experiences. That’s what I call a debate. There was, however, no followup on it, no comparison of the two experiences. It is true we can talk about creationism as seen through the understanding of NDEs. One does not need the experience to discuss it, as long as it’s discussed in a meaningful way without anger.

I have been trying to figure some way to explain what I mean about fear. It is very difficult to structure accurately. Fear is the opposite of Love. That statement is not correct, but will serve as part of the structure to impart meaning.

The subsets of Fear are all negative emotions. Anger, hate, jealousy, etc., and even doubt, self-doubt, and an inability to trust others.

The subsets of Love are all positive emotions. Compassion, caring, faith, trust, empathy, and kindness.

This will serve as a base, we are all created in total unconditional love. Growing up we learn to fear. Now here there is a difference between being told about hot stoves and fast cars, and being taught to fear God, people in authority, to distrust people of a certain group, race, etc. So we, all of us, built up a lot of fear.

Love has the ability to make that fear disappear. Love also opens up our heart to understand and connect with the source of our creation. Love.

I think that is enough, for now. I am sure I will get comments.

214

[QUOTE=Monty]

I also fear that I have no idea why Voyager just mentioned the Order of the British Empire. :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]

I wanted to inject some class into this thread. :smiley:

215

[QUOTE=Monty]
I fear that lekatt’s obsession with NDE has exactly nothing to do with the topic of this thread. I also fear that it has just about the same to do with almost any other thread in which he posts on his favorite topic.

I also fear that I have no idea why Voyager just mentioned the Order of the British Empire. :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]

Near death experiences are central to our being, and where we came from, which fits nicely into a thread on creation. It is the central most important topic in all studies. If we understood NDEs and what they mean to living on this planet we could change this world. Millions have already been changed by near death experiences and/or by reading about them.

216

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Near death experiences are central to our being,
[/quote]

That’s unmitigated baloney.

That’s one strange map, then.

Wong yet again.

So far, only you operate under that particular delusion.

So you now admit you don’t know what you’re talking about? It’s about time.

By reading about them? Yeah. It’s a loss of precious time.

217

[QUOTE=Monty]
That’s unmitigated baloney.

That’s one strange map, then.

Wong yet again.

So far, only you operate under that particular delusion.

So you now admit you don’t know what you’re talking about? It’s about time.

By reading about them? Yeah. It’s a loss of precious time.
[/QUOTE]

I am glad only a small minority of people agree with you.
I have never seen a mind so closed to scientific principles.

218

Unlike you, I actually am familiar with science. My field is a science. The only thing you’re practicing is falsehoods.

219

Would you at least make up your mind about whether science is a good thing or a bad thing?

220

[QUOTE=wayward]
Would you at least make up your mind about whether science is a good thing or a bad thing?
[/QUOTE]
Well, that would be tough, since science, (like god, spirit, matter, life, death, and everything else), changes as lekatt needs it to change to support his current argument. :stuck_out_tongue: