whacky prison reform thread

Great Debates
1

I’ve posted a similar topic before, but I got a few responses that implied my idea would be un-workable. Now my aim is to establish a few points of agreement that justify radically changing the prison system in the US (possibly need to amend the constitution as well).

I’m being very general, so if you want to nitpick details, fine, but please comment on the big picture.

Let us assume the following:

a) Poverty has a stronger correlation to crime than race

b) Crime/punishment/imprisonment will increase at some rate given population expansion & other factors.

c) Current prison system is wasteful & inefficient due to no real rehab. and recalcitrance (two huge assumptions; also many other factors involved)

Given these assumptions, and considering that some poor criminals (low IQ?) might consider prison & jail a place to eat & sleep, not THAT much worse than an environment where they’d live if they were free (ignoring rape/no freedom/threats of violence; bear in mind they still socialize to a large degree)…

What would you say to a proposal requiring prisoners to be forced to work at various trades for gov’t approved industries?

There’s the section of the constitution that bans cruel/unusual punishment, and obviously a lot of prisoners would need to be forced to work, likely by physical violence at the onset of such a program.

This would be unfair to a number of prisoners jailed for petty crimes. Should this be applicable only for hardened criminals? Would this require too much administrative overhead? How much is spent on the adminstrative side as it is? Would the benefits of free labor offset the expense of maintaining the system?

Other questions would be:

What industries could prisoners work for without taking jobs from non-criminals? Would you support spending more money on counseling and rehab for criminals that show promise when working in this system?

Hopefully I can come up with some more substance. The driving force for this concept IMO is that as it is now, we’re giving them a chance at room/board/rape/collusion with other criminals. I think that if there is any way to profit from criminals (and possibly deter crime), a system to foster that should be considered.

2

I have no problem with prisoners being forced to work.

3

Aren’t prisoners already being used in various types of labor? Like making license plates for example, or cleaning up roadsides.

4

Basically what this is called is the Auburn system. It’s not a new idea; it originated in the 1840’s.

5

I think I saw a thing on 60 minutes last year where in Nevada inmates are building limosines. It is a voluntary gig, but many do go for it. Its probably better than staring at the wall or your cellmate. I think they get some sort of small compensation as well.

How would you “FORCE” an unwilling prisoner to work? Torture?

6

My theory is that there would be significantly fewer people incarcerated if we:

a) provided drug rehabilitation on demand in facilities focused on high standards and quality

b) reduced / cut in half, class sizes in grades 1 - 4

c) provided high quality care / treatment for people with mental illnesses

I would guess that it would be extremely difficult to find well-paying jobs if you were an ex-convict. I suppose training while in prison may help, but only slightly. It would seem that the lack of skills and training would be only a small consideration for a prospective employer. The bigger risks, I think, are based on character issues and the lack of social skills. Perhaps businesses that agreed to hire these ex-cons shoul get some sort of subsidy. Hell, we subsidize everthing else, why not?

7

That’s a plus. If they enter into the prison system expecting this virtual “slave” labor, I would think that with counseling during probation for those progressing down a life of crime, this would act as a deterrent. Hell, you could even try to design the system to give compensation for work to the convict’s family if workable.

That’s why I mentioned changing the constitution. Yes, it sounds very harsh, but so does killing a clerk in a store robbery. There would probably need to be a real threat of physical violence against inmates if they act up while they’re working (or refusing to work).

It’s interesting that they’re building limosines. The liberal in me would rather force them to build hospitals, schools, and public housing.

8

Had to add this since I can’t edit my post. What moral difference is there between torturing someone to work, and torturing someone for interrogation? I know the latter doesn’t happen often in the U.S., but I thought I heard something about coalition forces using rough tactics to extract info. from enemy forces.

In one instance, you have someone who commited a violent crime directly against a citizen of the US, and the other case, they’re overseas helping the enemy fight us as a country.

For me, this could only be workable if there were enough violent offenders in the US to provide a sizable workforce. That would be required to justify the administration of something like this.

9

Virtually all prisoners now work and we don’t resort to torture as an incentive. Prisoners who refuse to work or otherwise misbehave lose privileges such as access to TV’s, radios, yards, libraries, mail order packages, etc.

10

There should never be a case where there is an incentive for people to be imprisoned. We should never rely on their labor.

11

True, but at least make it so the prison population is contributing enough to compensate for the expense of imprisoning them. If at the very least, try and strive for the level of self-sufficiency that prisons once had in the past.

12

I work in a max security prison.

You raise many interesting issues, about which I have some strong opinions and tons of observations. But its a nice day out, so I won’t bring them all up now.

I wil say that the issue of ‘forcing’ prisoners to work is problematic. Frankly, many inmates are good at projecting the illusion of performing some kind of ‘work’. What you get is poorly done or incompletely finished, and completely unsatisfactory work. And the manpower needed by prison staff to supervise to see that they stay on task is tremendous.

We do have some prison industries, which do make use of motivated inmates with real work skills. But they tend to be specialized, niche workshops, and can’t expand to fill a perceived market need very readily, or at all.

Also keep in mind that many states have laws that inmates cannot be used to produce goods and services which are being provided by free people in the community. This was to preserve their jobs and salaries from being undercut by “con products”.

More later, I hope. Gotta enjoy the sunshine.