What a difference! Old and new houses!

Factual Questions
1

Right.

Houses cost more these days. OK.
Houses are supposed to be built to last. OK.
Houses are now supposed to be built to withstand storms. ?? DUH! (Ya mean, they weren’t building them that way in the first place?)

I participated – mainly by walking around and watching – in the demolition of an old house. The wreckers were salvaging what they could in wood and material for use in later projects. I thought this to be very cool. I’ve often watched in dismay as yards of planking and tons of good 2x4s were shoved into bins and carried off to clog up the dump or burned.

I noticed that the 2x4 framing of old houses was really nailed into place with heavy nails and bolted with massive bolts to the foundation. Wall sheathing was nailed to the 2x4s with nails every so many inches. Floor boards had to be carefully pried up because they were nailed in place with lots of nails.

Cabinets were nailed and screwed together, plus glued, then mounted to the walls with nails or screws or both.

The roof was nailed in place with heavy nails spaced every few inches and the trusses were often nailed and bolted to the walls.

These houses were not going to fall down or blow away. These houses had been around for 50 years and were currently classified as low income residentials. They looked crappy, but I suspected that a grenade probably would only slightly damage any one of them.

I wandered over to a series of building sites where contractors were putting in fancy, CBS places starting at $100,000 and going up.

Most had a tiny bit more floor space than the houses which were being pulled down, but they looked better.

In went steel 2x4s. Galvanized. In 10 years they’ll start to rust, if not sooner if anyone scratches through the galvanization. They wobbled even after being anchored in place with two (2) screws top and bottom. Spacers or struts were put between them. Secured with two (2) screws on each end.

Insulation and sheathing went on, followed by wall board. The wall board was screwed in place with a screw every 8 to 12 inches.

The ‘wooden’ composite floor was glued in place. Funny, the only glue I know of to still hold after 20 years was some old, almost clear yellow carpenters glue no longer made. Prehung doors were fitted into place, with gaps between their sides and the nearest wooden 2x4. They were screwed in place with 3 big screws per two sides, shimmed and the gaps covered over.

Cabinets stapled and glued together were hung on walls with a maximum of 6 screws each. Baseboards were fastened in place with small finishing nails shot in the wood by nail guns. PVC pipe made up the plumbing. (PVC pipe, I’ve observed, gets real brittle when left outside for a couple of years.)

The roof trusses were put in place, secured by truss holders made of galvanized steel – which starts to rust in a couple of years, brace boards and spacers nailed in place by 2 (two) nails per end. Small nails. The plywood sheathing went up in less than a day. Nailed in place by nails spread about 12 inches apart. Then tar paper, nailed the same way with tar paper or roofing nails.

Then, tar based shingles, held in place by a thin bead of tar and 4 nails per strip.

What? Is there a shortage of nails? These are the houses which have been falling down in storms, while those older ones stood up against everything. And, shingles in an area hit by tornados and hurricanes and snow? Singles just beg the wind to lift them up and rip them off. Whatever happened to smooth roofing?

In hotter climates, clay shingles are good, because they’re heavy and many contractors cement the edges down. Plus they help hold the roof on and in areas, like California, where you know that forest behind you is going to burn down, they resist fire.

$100,000 and the place’s best asset is the Concrete Block walls. Well, indirect heating is in the slab consisting of a bunch of PVC flexi pipe or tubing coiled here and there through which hot water will pump from a seperate hot water heater, but, what happens when the pipe gets brittle and cracks within the slab in X number of years? (The rich, being smarter and having the money, use copper pipe.)

If I buy a house at $100,000 then I want that place to last several generations!

I think we’re getting screwed, but that’s only my opinion. What’s yours?

Did I miss something here as I grew up? Cheaper materials, less time, less durability yet more cost.

2

I can’t address the bulk of your question, but PVC pipe gets brittle from UV sunlight damage. This won’t happen indoors, or inside walls, etc.

I’d guess that houses are in general made of cheaper materials and less-long-lasting construction because not many people care how long it lasts. Many fewer people today plan to live in a house for 30 years or more. As long as it lasts the 5-10 years until the next house is built, the typical yuppie just wants it cheap :slight_smile:

Hopefully there are still people who know how to build a solid, well-constructed house for those who want one.

Arjuna34

3

The problem isn’t that new homes are just cheaply built - they are not cheap at all!

Our household income puts us in the top 5% of this metro area, yet we would have difficulty comfortably affording many of the new “yuppie style” cookie-cutter houses being built. And acquaintenances at work that buy these houses have a non-stop litany of complaints and tales of woe related to these new houses, and their shoddy construction.

For $240,000 here, you get a house that typically has one or more of the following items:

  • several large cracks in the walls
  • uneven floors
  • front steps that need “mudjacking” every 3 years
  • non-functional grage doors
  • inside doors that either don’t latch, or stick shut
  • a driveway that has it’s foundation wash out, and settles, leaving a 1 to 3 inch deep crevasse to drive over every day.
  • unfinished basement with construction mud still in it
  • water pipes and roof that leak in the first year
  • a “6 month water heater”
  • a central air conditioner that won’t hold freon for more than 1 year
  • unsealed storm windows and windows, and/or
  • a a multiple-cracked basement that leaks every rain storm.
4

While I can’t defend all current home-building techniques, (we still build quality homes in our area but then again there are lots of real craftsmen around here that care about their work).

I would like to take issue with some of skribblers observations.

Framing lumber is still the most commonly used material in residential homes in the US. Steel is becoming more common because of relative shortage of quality wood and because steel is becoming competative with wood.

I’ve worked with galvanized steel for years and have yet to see it rust, even if the galvanization is compromised. Most exterior nails are galvanized and never show evidence of rust. Look at your wood decks and most are supported underneath with galvanized supports.

Glues today are far superior to those our fathers used.

I can’t stand asphalt shingles, I prefer metal, for snow shedding qualities and fire prevention. Shingles will always be around 'cause lots of people just like the way they look.

Pre-hung doors, as well as custom fitted doors always have a gap between the door and the nearest framing. It’s done intentionally to allow for adjustment and a proper fit.

The piping in the floor, while relatively new here in the US, has been used in Europe for decades with great success. It is far superior to copper in most cases and you will see much more of it used here in the future.

All in all, while I love old houses, most new construction is far superior to to older materials and techniques. They will hold up better over time if they were carefully built with quality materials by people who take pride in their work.

And Anthracite…what can I say, your complaints are valid, I’ve seen such construction too. If more folks would educate themselves (or hire a professional home inspector, even for new homes) and refuse homes with the problems you describe, the shoddy builders will soon go out of business.

Another consideration is that most areas are required to build with multitudes of codes, which you sometimes have to wonder WTF, are there for a good reason. Someone somewhere had problems.

5

I gotta say that I’m in emotional agreement with Skribbler on this one – all that glue and plastic and wood made from sawdust gives me very little confidence in most new construction. But I’m no expert, so I’ll abstain from adding anything more, except…

I think that drywall screws – which, I’ve noticed, many contractors use for dozens of applications, not just hanging drywall – will outlast and outperform nails hands down. Build something with those babies and it stays built. No loosening, creaking or coming apart.

6

New houses have to be made to local codes. Often the codes state how it is to be made.

But I think that people get a quote from a contractor on the construction & the contractor makes it as cheaply as possible to get the most profit. sigh

7

Newer materials are often superior to what was used years ago, but there was more quality work done than there is now.

I had my house built 5 years ago. The bottom line is that if you’re having a house built, you’d better educate yourself on the process. You should be out there every single day, twice a day if you can, inspecting what these contractors are doing. I caught mistakes or crappy work almost every single day.

If you’re buying a recently built home, you should still know some basics about construction with the things you can see - proper spacing of attic joists and rafters, wire gauge where you can see it, proper venting and supply of plumbing fixtures, etc. Check what your local codes are. Other than that, it’s a crap shoot.

8

As someone who actually spent two summers working on the houses in the exact same area Anth is speaking of, I can say that she is indeed correct. I worked for one of the largest construction firms in the Overland Park/Olathe/Stanley area, and while the houses cost alot, they use the very cheapest materials possible, the cheapest labor, and the cheapest techniques. These houses are shoddy crap, and fall apart. They only have a 3 year warranty, and in that time, the standard procedure is to fix three or four plumbing leaks, rewire a few switches and fixtures, fix two or three cracks in the foundation and basement, redo every other driveway, regrade the yard to stop foundation leaks, and rewaterproof the foundation.

Have fun with your shitty new house.

–Tim

9

It is easy to complain about car manufacturers, home builders, or whatever but the fact is that it is a very competitive business wher it is not easy to make money and it is easy to go bankrupt.

Home builders built what they think will sell. A lot of the time they built stuff that may not be the most prctical etc, but it is the buyers who should be blamed because they are the ones buying the stuff.

As for quality. You want an old home? There are many for sale. I bought one and I know what it’s like. It is a matter of love but it is often more expensive to repair them than to tear them down and build a new one. i have done a ton of work to this house.

And to say they were better built is something very subjectove. The insulation was very bad. The lathing and plaster walls were worse than drywall… the pipes were not better… I can’t see they were much better, except maybe overbuilt in some aspects… but on the whole I don’t think so.

10

Certainly there were problems with the older homes, but the fact that they stood up for 50 to 100 years talks of tough construction and these are usually wood, single story houses, with a few two story ones tossed in.

I haven’t yet figured out why cement became almost more expensive than gold because 20 to 30 years ago, everyone built with CB for exterior walls and some interior ones. There are even some homes which were built out of poured cement by hand and sculpted by the owner/builder.

Then, suddenly, everyone started building wood frame houses on cement foundations, slapping up wooden walls, covering them with wire and spraying or smearing on a cement 'shell. That was followed by putting up the wooden wall frame, filling it with insulation, sticking on either fiber or chip board or stiff sheets of more insulation and then applying a cement coat. (Then they got cute by ‘sculpting’ raised designs in the stuff to look like heavy beams and so on.)

Some used tinted cement to sculpt bricks with on patios, front walks, and footings. (The stuff wears off within 2 or 3 years of being walked on.)

Cement block was too expensive, then suddenly, wood was too expensive, and now composite wood looks like it’s going to become too expensive and I’ve noticed CBS homes going up again.

I understand codes, but it seems that building codes can be shifted at whim to builders benifite when they allow those cement covered cracker box houses to pop up.

Up here, storms come up from the Gulf of Mexico, cross Florida and kick ass. Either that or they come up from the Atlantic and rip up Georgia’s coast. Everyone knows they’re not going to be pleasant and I was stunned when the cracker box houses started appearing but not all surprised when they started blowing away.

Thermo windows with plastic flaps and plastic frames, tacked into place with 3 nails per side bother me. I’ve found enough discarded plastic in the forests over the years to know what happens to it when exposed long enough to the weather.

It breaks.

In areas where we get torrential rains frequently, I never understood why so many folks have basements with dirt floors, that turn into mud. Better places have thick cement slabs down there. Furnaces confuse me, so I’ll not go there at all.

What I get a charge out of is that the very government buildings where building codes are thought up, probably over drinks, are of cement, reinforced and solid. So are the buildings of most major businesses.

The thing about Cement Brick that I get a charge from is that 1 brick alone can be shattered by dropping it in the dirt. Stack up 20, cement them together and you need a car to break them up.

So, after 20 or 30 years of homes being blown down, now suddenly CBS comes back along with the older ways of tying things together, like roofs. Man! 20 or 30 years to learn that cheap forms of construction just don’t work!

11

Skribbler… the thermo-pane windows you refer to are made of vinyl. They can be relatively inexpensive but they do not get brittle and break. They are also pre-perforated every six inches or more for fastening.

Codes do vary from location to location, we don’t all have to worry about hurricanes. Bottom line-buyer beware.

12

I’m putting some work into my grandmother’s house right now. Built in 1907, it has wonderful, spacious architecture, and was made from beautiful oak. My ancestors have desecrated, uh, excuse me, I mean decorated it in the most horrible and tasteless manner imaginable, but the house itself is amazingly beautiful and solid. My grandmother is 93 herself and has been planning to pass on any day now for thirty years so she has refused to keep up the house, yet it’s still in basically okay shape. There are some problems but, after all, the house is closing on a hundred years old and hasn’t really been maintained for three decades. Every piece of it is solid and well-built. It isn’t insulated very well, but otherwise there is very little about the architecture or building of this house that I would change. I expect the house to continue to be around for another hundred years, at least.

Most of the modern houses I go in, besides being cramped (but that’s what people want! our survey of average people said so), seem to be made of cardboard to me. If I’m carrying something heavy and I bump into the wall or door, it’s guaranteed that there will be a crease or crack in that door. If professional workmen are not brought in every other year to do major upkeep, the houses become unlivable for one reason or another.

The people responsible for building these things make two claims:

  1. No, no, these new materials are in fact better and more durable than the old stuff.
    [This is true, if they were used the same way as the old stuff. The modern materials have greater tensile strength, more rust resistance, etc. But the old stuff was used with its weaknesses in mind - a few extra nails or braces were added, or some kind of covering to ensure rust wouldn’t have a chance to get started. Nowadays, we have all these great materials so we can dispense with such precautions. The NET result is crappier houses made with better materials.]
  2. It doesn’t matter anyway, even if it is crappier, because we’re giving people what they want.
    [This is true, too, but is no excuse. If you go to a doctor and he gives you a strong painkiller but does nothing to address your broken ankle, he is guilty of malpractice even if you walk away from the transaction feeling fine. The doctor’s expertise is greater than yours and he is therefore obligated to give you the best treatment HIS expertise can produce. Your limited understanding of medicine is not the standard to which the treatment is held. Now, not everyone is an expert builder so if people walk away satisfied with construction that initially looks nice to the untrained eye, but lasts only a few years, the builder is still at fault in my book; he has acted unprofessionally.]
13

As in anything else, you get what you pay for. If you want quality materials and real craftsmanship, it is available. The reason for newer building materials is simple, it’s difficult or impossible to acquire some of the fine materials everyone is talking of and if you can they are extremely dear. The other major reason is energy efficiency which anymore, with the cost of energy is one of the first things to look for.

14

I’ve worked on Victorian era houses for most of my life. I’ve lived in one for the last twelve years. I was also the foreman for the restoration of an Edwardian house as well. These beauties are unbelievably sound and well constructed. The flexibility of all wood construction is an ideal earthquake protection system. I won’t go on about having twelve foot ceilings.

As a musician, there is nothing like nice plaster and lath walls to dampen my electic guitar work for the neighbors. The rooms have good acoustics as well. Having a real basement is a joy too. These buildings can be maintenance intensive at first but the are truly built to last.

15

Those beautiful Victorian houses that a middle class family can afford today were only affordable to the very rich when they were built.

I am quite sure on the whole people live in better houses today than they did 75 years ago and they pay much less for them in terms of the number of hours they have to work to pay for them.

People lived in smaller houses and were much more crowded.

16

My experience: I have a 75-year old house. This house required over $90,000.00 worth of renovation, to bring it up to modern standards. I would never buy a victorian house, they are jsut too expensive to maintain:
also, they are not well laid out-bathrooms: too small and not enough storage. Closets: too small. Beddrooms: usually poorly laid out. Dining rooms: never used by modern families. Kitchens: usually too small, dark, and poorly laid out. Plus, the highceilings and large fron windows make these houses energy hogs.
My real beef: I like modern houses, but they are difficult to find and sell in New England-people here want their houses to look like they were built 300 years ago. A modern house, if well built, can be energy efficient, and cost next to nothing to maintain. Trust me, a Victorian will break both your back and your wallet!

17

egkelly, right.

We have a lot of Victorian houses in PG, as you probably know. Someone bought one that is about 100 years old [just barely a frame standing] near my client. They are now putting on a second story [have to keep the old house because its a historical house]. The property cost them about $300,000 [not too bright of them to pay that much] & the house remodel [if you could call it that] $125,000.

Victorian’s as you said, just ain’t worth it.

18

I personally don’t trust anyone to build a home for me using their own specifications. Given, most people don’t know enough to do this, but if you do, be your own contractor. My grandfather and dad both did the blueprints and supervised the building of their homes. Everything is where you want it, and you can avoid cheap materials. Sometimes it costs a little bit more, but it’s well worth the cost when you figure how much you’ll save on repair costs. By the way, I learned about building houses by working on my Dad’s as it was being built.

19

Having lived in both older and newer houses I wouldn’t trade my old one for anything. It’s 130+ years old (record keeping broke down during reconstruction) and solid like a boulder.

Yes the bathrooms were afterthoughts from the teens. Yes the indoor kitchen is an afterthought.

But hell, solid wood and plaster construction? I’m 60+ miles outside of DC and I guarantee you my house will still be standing 100 years from now. Say THAT about new developments.

Plus…the new houses all look kind of the same.

20
      • Hardwoods are much more expensive now than they were 100 years ago, but some of the materials and workmanship of modern houses has gotten to be really poor. Many materials are becoming or already are paper-based; they aren’t even chipboard, just thick cardboard. It blisters and disintegrates in high humidity or exposure to water. Such a deal! - MC