What about a "maximum wage"?

Yeah, this sounds nice in theory. And, I am certainly not denying that there are certain things that a market economy can do more efficiently than government. But, I think the efficiency of companies in a market economy tends to get exagerated and the inefficiency of government tends to get exagerated too. (In fact, there have been cases of people on this message board making claims about government waste that turned out to be based on pretty ludicrous assumptions or interpretations once we actually looked into them.)

I mean, I work for a big company that is certainly feeling the pressure from market forces in ways that it didn’t used to when it effectively almost had a monopoly. And, while these market forces may have pressured it to become more efficient in some ways, it has also pressured it to do some very stupid things because corporations, like governments, have a bureaucracy so there’s a lot of tendency for people to just shift costs away from the budgets they control to other people’s budgets. (This is, of course, most effective when you shift it from a cost that is easy to measure and highly concentrated in one area to one that is diffuse and very hard to measure.) And, if my corporation is fated to die, it is certainly taking a long time to do so!
And, on the other side of things, I think government does have considerable pressures on it to be more efficient. They may not be as large pressures as the market provides but they are there. And, of course, with government you have certain advantages, one being that you don’t end up paying money into the hands of a few extraordinarily overpaid people at the top and to “profit” of the investors.

My supposition is not that it necessarily would cause prices to go up, but that without other failsafes in place they could price things out of the poor’s reach if we only apply limits to one and not the other.

Since this entire thread has devolved into the Communists (effectively, and don’t give me any bull about how 100% tax rates with such a cap are not socialist) versus the Free-Market Capitalists (Whoot!) and has otherwised fallen into minutae…

I put forth that the ONLY hard freedom people really have is the right to create wealth for themselves and to aquire goods, properyt, and money. Granted, nothing in this world lasts forever, but wealth is one of the few rights that CANNOT be disregarded in a free society. There is a very simple logic here: I have earned that wealth. It isn’t yours. We, as a nation may decide to tax some of it, without a unanimous voice, but there is never a point at which the government may say, “OK, you’ve had enough money, you may not get any more.” That would be a travesty of justice.

As an aside, you may argue that people “aren’t worth that much” till the cows come home: the fact remains that they have arranged things thuslky that they bloody fucking are worth that much. Whether you agree or not is your own opinion; stop trying to force it on others. You want to pass laws to force people to limit their wealth in a hard limit. This is force, in this context. No one has forced anyone to give x-dolars to individual Y. He or she earned that money.

PS: Chumpsky, will you at least try and back you arguments up with something? Debating with you is like trying to beat a blanket to death with a baseball bat. The only reason we cannot succeed is because there’s no substance to smash.

sigh I realize I have been unable, once again, to perfectly put down my thoughts. That probably sounds like a raving lunatic talking there…

sb: That probably sounds like a raving lunatic talking there…

Well, at least it wasn’t very clear what you were trying to say. (E.g., right from the start I’m puzzled as to how you manage to interpret this debate as one between “Communists” and “Free-Market Capitalists”. Seems to me that most of us here (certainly me and jshore, for example) have been arguing in favor of some form of the existing mixed economy with progressive taxation, which doesn’t seem to fit into either of your categories.)

So yeah, go ahead and post a revised version if you want to, and we’ll ignore the first attempt.

Danke Schoen.

Simply put, I’m arguing that NO government (actually, no third party) has a moral right to decide what me or my services are worth. And that is Communist, even though it may allow some free-market principles. The government does not have the moral or legal authority, much less the far-sightedness, to rightfully decide this. I and my customers are the only people who should be involved in this decision. If someone really like my banana splits, and wishes to pay me $6 Mill for the recipe, then who are you or the government to naysay them? Its my right and their right. To infringe upon the basic right to sell any legal good or service at quality, to the best of by ability not only disgusts me, but is, I think, a terror to free society.

If one does not have the right to make money (really, the only hard physical right one can have) what rights do you have?

The reason I think manking money is a basic right is that society itself tends to fall apart without it. The fact is that peolple like to be “all that they can be”. In other words, I, personally, want to prove to the world and to myself just how bright and useful I am. I want to make money! I want to be important and great!. Sure, I’m being prideful and childish, but I think I am getting across the fact that I WANT TO EXCEL! I want to top everyone else and be the next Bill Gates, just because I can.

And I could never live in a society where that freedom was infringed.

I notice Claiobscur posting in defense of this idea. I also hear she lives in Paris. I also find that France has done very poorly, economically, over the last 50 years, even wih the Marshall Plan. I hear a great many voices saying it is due to their restrictive laws, protectionism, and the regulations limiting hours and requiring huge vacations. All of these are designed to make companies hire more workers. Yet it does not seem very efficient, no?

I am not an economist, so I won’'t be drawn into a debate over the French markets, but…

Well, I guess we are really screwed then. We can’t have any patent law because no matter what we decide on (what is patentable, length of patents, …), it will affect how much someone’s services (in this case, their intellectual property contributions) are worth.

And, let’s see, we can’t have laws to set up corporations with their attendant legal privileges because that also affects how much certain services will be compensated.

Of course, if you are just saying that government can’t decide completely but that they can have input, then few people here would disagree with you, other than those (the original OP…has there been anyone else?) who are proposing a rigid cap on income. [Even those people aren’t deciding how much your services are worth completely…They are just putting a high cap on how much they can be worth.]

That argument is more than a little disingenuous.

Notice I said third party. The government has every right to protect inventors. Merely because it affects the market is irrelevant. Everything affects the economy. However, the government is not setting the rates at which i may be paid, nor does it decide the value of my work.

Which is a first or second party. Not the third party. Not the government.

No, the government should not have any input at all. It should be able to regulate the markets, to ensure the safety of consumers. This has nothing to do with the value of my work to other people.

But many people’s work is worth far more than 5 million a year to the markety. This may seem to be only a mild encroachment to those who don’t earn that much, but to me (and I have less than 6000$ net worth :slight_smile: ) this is irrelevant. The government does not have that right, moraly.

Well, I guess then I am confused about where you draw your line. Does the moral black-and white come in only when the tax rate becomes 100% or does it set in when it is 80% or 70% or 50%…Or, when the government makes a law about patents that affects how much I can get paid for my intellectual property.

I happen to agree with you that setting a 100% marginal tax rate is a bad idea but I have trouble with a very absolute moral argument in this regard because such absolute arguments demand a clear line and I don’t understand where you are going to draw it.

jshore, generally such lines are drawn where the individual drawing the line believes that the tax will harm him more than it will hurt him. Personal pragmatism is a wonderful thing.

er, “harm him more than it will help him”. Stupid fingers.

And this is a problem how? Heaven forbid that someone should find another incentive other than attaining money when they can live off their interest for life. There are other interesting things to do around here.

-Justhink

One single individual human being is able to produce an inherent life value of more than 5 million per year in dollars? I think the only people in this area are prodogies who generally could care less about money as observed historically.

The cap is based upon the idea that the only people who care about this are by definition so retarded that they really need to be in a recovery program or special ed class. These individuals are being paid in proportion to their ability to violate trust, and that’s it. You can’t keep running an economy like that in an information age.

-Justhink

One concern of mine along these lines is that this capless system destroys democracy. So maybe I want to buy a cheese-burger at a fast-food chain, that doesn’t mean I’m voting for some person at the helm of this burger joint to institute policies which effect everyone on the earth adversely without any checks and balances, because they are by definition a private citizen and can do whatever they want. People who are buying burgers aren’t thinking about the fact that they are voting in that sense. When you have a single human being who amasses a few hundred billion, you are necessarily sacrificing your freedom to an independant ‘state’ within your country, who can do whatever they damn well please with no check and balance in-between.

We’re not paying so and so to fund a biological research facility which crafts a genetic warfare materials program. If the program can’t get funding from the citizens of this country then why on earth should the citizens not have a say at this juncture with private citizens who don’t even need to disclose anything because of their supposed freedom? The only reason they have that money in the first place is because they were able to steal it behind a barrel of weaponry which they were basically born on.
Any moron can do that. We need to aknowledge that these people are being given way to much power with regards to their unethical circumvention of elective office scrutiny to fund programs publicly which the public would never fund. (Not that this is too big a problem as our public funds in general are cooked).

See the point though?

And what’s with this whole “They’re making it worse for those who are poor by giving them money to live” crap? There is no human being on this earth who is worth that much money except for a prodogy, who doesn’t need to lie steal or cheat to be wealthy or to gather intelligence to make them valuable as a resource. And prodogies have shown historically by example that money doesn’t mean much to them. I think it can be demonstracted that the hording of currency and capital are necessarily a deficiency of the brain in a said human being. We should put a cap on how stupid one human being can be of their own free-will while affecting the most basic wel-being of others in the process. These people can use a hammer on their head, it’s cheaper and doesn’t impact many. There’s no point towards allowing this limitless resource accumulation for individuals. It only benefits people emotionally who were born to dumb to contribute to society. We should put a cap on how much corruption one human of this inclination can do.

-Justhink

Bill Gates has more wealth than the lower 40% of the US population, COMBINED.

I wish I could believe in the idea of people only getting the wealth they deserve, but Bill Gates only got that money because he happened to get into the personal computer software market at the luckiest time. And he knows how to be a fascist that destroys or conquerers his competitors.

That fact of Bill Gates wealth tells a lot about poverty and wealth in America.

What, may I ask, is an “inherent life value” and why do you think you can put a price tag on it that generally falls below 5 million dollars? Seems more than a little arbitrary to me.

It’s easy to have it out for the rich, too easy. Why should they be rich and we be poor? If the cold logic of market forces determining worth doesn’t do it for you then you could always just try being bigoted.

ie.

or blame it on “luck” ( in which case the wealth is also “unfairly gained”)

ie.

Come on now, it seems more than a little unfair (or more likely foolish) to dismiss someone who has managed a successful business in a volatile industry for so long as just “lucky.”

This whole five million cap thing is just arbitrary, if we really wanted to set the limit at the baseline of human subsistence then we could probably do it with a few bowls of rice a day and a nice cave somewhere. I’m sure somebody out there thinks that anything above that level is just uneccessary luxury.

What is often forgotten in this rush to judgement against the rich is that they do provide services to the rest of the economy through investment. Obviously they aren’t going to spend all of that money on the bare essentials of supporting daily life, but even if they did that wealth is being transferred somewhere. Through the market they can finance the sort of business ventures, capital investment, infrastructure or research and development that provide jobs for the rest of us. And if they do well, they get to make more money. You can pull out Enron all day long as an example of how the process can go awry but that does not undermine the basic validity of that process.

I know it has been said before but I will reiterate, a 100% tax at 5 million dollars is de facto communism. All major investments would have to come through the state or state owned companies, there would be little incentive to provide more than 5 million dollars worth of services anywhere. 5 million dollars, though it might seem like it, is not alot of money and we would be seriously kicking ourselves in the ass.

The tax burden in the U.S. is already disproportionately felt by the rich and this is not neccessarily a bad thing. Those who have the ability to contribute more should do so. The problem I have is when some half-baked scheme to redistribute wealth through the machinery of the state comes along and people invariably think it is a good idea because the rich “don’t deserve” the money they have. That is a fallacy; subjective analysis of whether wealth is “deserved” or not always tends to bias towards how much of that wealth is your own.

Better to let the market decide, it does a great job most of the time: make a good decision, get wealthier; make a bad one, lose all your money.

Ah, but we had it tough! We had to live in a corridor!

I’ve pretty much given up making serious debate points in this thread.

Man, sorry I have been away from this for a while, I had to go to a wedding. I think my points of dabate are too far in the past to dredge up, but I nearly laughed my ass off at this quote:

That’s tantamount to saying that the Wright borthers got in at the start of the airplane market…

racekarl, Bill Gates did not create the personal computer software market. It already existed when he got into it, and his early contributions were not that important. His first product, a BASIC interpreter, was stolen from the MIT AI lab, and the product that made Microsoft a major player, MS-DOS, was purchased by Microsoft from a predecessor corporation at which Bill Gates did not work.

For the AI lab reference, see Soul of a New Machine, by Tracy Kidder. I think the MS-DOS (QDos) story is in there too.

Do we REALLY want the GOVERNMENT stepping in and determining the amount of money that someone in a FREE market, democratic country aught to be able to earn? If Bill Gates had had these types of restrictions on him he may not have been as motivated to build the largest software company in the world. Might I add that he employs tens of thousands of workers who all make a good living.

Leaving wealth distribution in the hands of the government is wrong wrong wrong!!! The government is a big money filter that wastes more money than is put to good use.
Allowing the rich to keep their earnings allows others to work for a living. Trample on the rich and you trample on the people who benefit from them.
Philanthropists prop up many countless charities.
Directly or indirectly all of us here in this thread are the beneficiaries of some rich persons hard work.
It is human nature to want to help the fellow man. Those with excess money will find a way to help others if they want to. I make diddly squat and I still find enough to give to the charities that I deem fit. Give more to the government and you WILL find less available to those who really need it.
Incentives for making more and saving more and giving more make more sense to me than higher taxes.
How is penalizing someone for success a good thing? If I ever become wealthy because of my own hard work, I would like the government to kindly keep its hands out of my pocket. Let me give away the money I dont need to whom I want instead of some bullshit government program that I dont agree with. Or at least give me the option. Hell, if I thought the government is diong a great job maybe Id be willing to turn over more in the form of taxes. Such is not the case. Too much waste and beauracratic red tape for my taste.