Social Policy: Rich people are people too!

Would You Support a Maximun Wage? got me thinking: It seems that when people propose ways to improve society, some people either speak as if the gap between the upper and lower class as a problem in and of itself, or propose schemes that take a huge percentage of income of the wealthy without being very specific as to what we need the money for. IMO, this is totally wrong. Social policy should be based on answering the following questions(in order):

  1. What is the best way to give the less fortunate the help they need in such a manner that encourages them to ultimately earn a decent living?

  2. How much money does the government need in order to provide its various services?

  3. How can the government get said money in a manner that is fair to all?

First of all, the government has the right to take only what it needs for the services it provides. Anything beyond that is stealing, plain and simple.

As is stated in the title, rich people are people too! They have the same rights as the rest of us, including the right to be free from unreasonable taxation.
What do you think?

**First of all, the government has the right to take only what it needs for the services it provides. Anything beyond that is stealing, plain and simple. **

???

If a government takes in more than it needs (as in uses) for the services it’s providing, then it’s generating a surplus. Now I’m aware that some of our elected officials think that our government generating a surplus is a sin, but I don’t happen to agree with them. :slight_smile:

If a government is taking in more than it needs (as in you think it could perform the same services using less money), then it’s merely being inefficient. Note that everyone is convinced that government is inefficient - the folks who don’t happen to be in power at the moment typically being more convinced of that than the folks who do happen to be in power at the moment. The amazing thing is that our constantly electing folks into office whose primary goal is to make government more efficient doesn’t seem to have changed things any…

(BTW, I happen to agree with the title of this thread - just not the above quote.)

RoboDude,

Stealing it back from the ultra-rich might be a valid way to put it. Billionaires seem to be magically able to algorithmically double their investment twice as fast the bigger it gets with half the effort. How can one make money without working for it? They make others work for it, and even work against others for it. I’m not saying that the entire economy is a zero-sum game, but I’m saying most of it is. If there are very rich people, there must be very poor people because money has relative value that fluctuates according to how many people need it.

Whose economy is it? Who prints and insures the money? What happens if the rich print their own money? (It has been tried many times unsuccessfully). In other words, why are we printing and insuring money and giving it to the rich bankers? Well, it actually works to SOME degree. It fails when we believe that they actually OWN the entire money supply, OUR money that is, and believe they can use it against us and our interests (no pun necessary).

RoboDude, why don’t we enjoy our extreme options available to us now? Why don’t we grab all the trees for ourselves, use all the oil, make slaves of children? Don’t answer that, we do all those things. But at the very least we should not be slaves to very our own machines that we control, including money. There is a historical point to an balanced economy, protecting important jobs, providing education for future employees, preventing disease, and smoothing depressions caused by extreme wealth (see link).

http://www.escape.com/~paulg53/politics/great_depression.shtml

Money and monetary policy is not for the benefit of a few people to amass against us. It is so we can have a good life uninterupted by not having a medium of exchange hoarded and controlled by our enemies, foreign or domestic (the wealthy). The modern game, if there is one, is not to compete for survival, but for leisure. Let’s not think we are impotent as a majority and oppress ourselves by our own purist theories just because Jesus institutionalized poverty and said a bunch of parables that favored the rich and their coinage. Thanks.

Well, if they’re caught (which is quite likely considering that most of the bills have been redesigned such that they can no longer be accurately copied with conventional equipment), they get arrested, and if they are convicted, they go to federal prison for a long time.

Negatory, good buddy. You see, the government is a public institution and as such cannot be geared for a profit. If it were the government would be a business competing against private individuals. As I’m sure you must see, the government competing with private individuals is a remarkably unfair situation.

A government surplus is a scary thing and it must be spent as soon as possible. The government cannot make a profit!

brian
Wow. You scare me sometimes with this marxist outlook. Whose economy is it? No one’s! That means that no one should be able to dictate what happens with it.

Another answer is: its the rich’s economy. That is, wealth distribution through public insitutions are a recent affair whereby the government overtaxed the wealthy to provide the poor services and goods to make a more equal footing. Thus, the economy was always theirs and they let us have some of it.

Another answer is, its our economy! Those guys wouldn’t be rich if it weren’t for us slaving away at the jobs they gave us! Er, made us take!

We have largely eliminated the need to attack the wealth of the wealthy anymore. There are so many “free” opportunities made available through social programs that even Abe Lincoln would not have to walk two miles to school to get an education. The damn busses would go out of their way to pick him up! :wink:

“Billionaires seem to be magically able to algorithmically double their investment twice as fast the bigger it gets with half the effort.”
Yeah, and people who aren’t billionares always seem to know how to manage money; now, if only they had that much of it… :wink:

That was an interesting article, by the way. I have seen it pinned on the stock market, seen it pinned on the evaporation of the gold standard, seen it pinned on the Fed, seen it pinned on the government for not listening to the Fed…you get the picture. In the end the answer probably isn’t as simple as “those lousy rich people keepin’ us down,” as much as that would let us abrogate their rights for our whims.

Which we already do anyway.

**Billionaires seem to be magically able to algorithmically double their investment twice as fast the bigger it gets with half the effort. **

(shrug) That’s a skill that some people have. The ones that have it tend to become richer than the rest of us as a direct result of that skill.

I’m not saying that the entire economy is a zero-sum game, but I’m saying most of it is.

Oh, I’ll strongly disagree with that statement. Capitalism is a strongly positive-sum arrangement. Henry Ford mastered the technique of assembly-line production, making himself quite rich in the process while significantly driving down the cost of the automobile for the rest of us.

the government is a public institution and as such cannot be geared for a profit.

Sure it can. The government being what it is, this sort of thing doesn’t happen very often, but there aren’t any rules against it.

If it were the government would be a business competing against private individuals. As I’m sure you must see, the government competing with private individuals is a remarkably unfair situation.

Yeay, I noticed how the US Post Office really blew away those FedEx and UPS fellows. I’m sure that’s why they converted it into a semi-private institution - we had to give those other guys some sort of a chance. :slight_smile:

I previously neglected to add that billionaires who profit in the manner I suggested (exaggerated for effect, I think) also often partially control the markets they invest in, aka, a fix, sure bet, a golden goose, etc.

ARL,

I am not a Marxist, for the reason I believe money should exist and be managed by experts to begin with. Taxation does not undo an economy, it depends where it is spent, or invested as it were. Education is a sure bet.

Sounds like Marxism to me, as long as it is a “dictatorship of the proletariat” that determines who the experts are.

I prefer that money (and labor) exist and be managed by every expert, average Joe, and complete dolt out there.

Marxism did not propose taxation, never. Without taxation the economy cannot really exist (all you demophobes compare Central America and Scandanavia to get a glimpse of life without taxes, run by the trusty rich, and try moving to either and I dare you to stay where you are most welcome). There is no Republican anarchy anywhere in the world, it’s a fantasy of religious or newly rich people where the poor exist to define them as rich (I define the rich as billionaires, if you are not a millionaire, you are poor). A rich person makes 1000 times more per hour than the rest of us, and they then add insult to injury and command the allegiance of poor people via religion and demogoguery (Rush Limbaugh). Dictatorship of the proletariat defines this position. It’s a rich person (dictator) who gets uneducated poor people to support him (the fake leader usually wear cowboy hats and talk like they’re from Texas).

So I guess the government, controlling all markets through regulation and interference in the economy, has a vested interest in investing in the economy as well. This makes them worse than the businessmen you condemn: now I say: LETS TAX THE GOVERNMENT!! They got all the money, they run the banks, they write the laws…
[sub]etc[/sub]
:wink:

Golf
Well, the Post Office is an interesting example, but the post office specialized, as it were, in delivering letters while the others made their mainstay from packages. Delivering letters just doesn’t generate a ton of revenue.

Long live the bourgeois! :smiley:

arl: The only reason FedEx and UPS don’t deliver mail is that they’re not allowed to. By law, ordinary mail can only be delivered by the Post Office. Only letters classified as urgent are allowed to be sent via private carriers.

They don’t have taxes in Central America? That’s news to me.

Republican anarchy- oxymoron alert

IANAM(illionaire), but I am also not poor, by any measure of the word. Yes, in order to feed myself, put a roof over my head, and to buy neat little gadgets, I go to work. I make more than the median income in my area for a family of four, but I don’t have four mouths to feed nor four bodies to clothe. By most worldwide measures, I am quite rich. Since I am single, without children, and already educated, the only tax cuts that will benefit me at all are marginal rate cuts, and capital gains tax reductions. These, however, are derided as only helping the rich. So I guess I’m rich, after all.

huh? Rush Limbaugh is a tool of the great conspiracy of rich people to command the allegiance of the poor? I thought he was a tool of (fill in the name of whatever media company he works for, I’m too lazy to research this) to command huge advertising revenues from the makers of various itch relief products and many other consumer goods.

Have you read Marx? “Dictatorship of the proletariat” is what Marx called the government presiding over the happy time when the Evil Capitalists[sup]TM[/sup] are being crushed, and Evil Landowners[sup]TM[/sup] are having their farms taken from them and redistributed (to the government, since private ownership is a no-no). Of course, these the economy must be centrally managed by experts, since the market is evil. And these experts are better and smarter than anyone else, so they deserve any perqs they want. Then you end up with another group of elite rich people running the economy (usually to very bad effect, witness any Communist country that stuck it out).

Longhorn,

You have mistaken me for a communist. I am a progressive that believes in taxing the rich to provide health benefits and free higher education as the cost of doing business. If we as the model of democracy assume government is evil and we as the paragon of wealth assume that luxury taxes are of the devil, what have we? I don’t know, but it sounds American to me. Did you see the Beverly Hillbillies?

I repeat, I am not a Marxist. In the zoo, I’m found in the humanist progressive cage, where we assume that only humans provide for humans, and we can do whatever we figure we are capable of doing. We don’t need a silly foreign dogma designed by middle-eastern shepherds to control our destiny and tell us that poverty is good and progress is impossible.

Normally, of course, I see communists out of the corner of my eye all the time. They’ll sneak up on ya when you’re not looking… I’m not obsessed they’re just everywhere.

But brian, when you spout retoric about redistribution of wealth, smear rich people, and suggest that reality is whatever we make it, try not to sound so shocked when we suspect you of being a communist.

“If we as the model of democracy assume government is evil…”
But see, we(in this thread) don’t assume that. Just because we don’t see the government as a tool for your universal good doesn’t mean we hate it. I find that governments are necessary to protect certain rights, for example, one of which includes equal treatment under the law regardless of race, creed, or even (shudder) social or economic status. You find the government necessary to redistribute wealth by taking it from the people who have it. ::shrug:: Hard to agree with you.

“We don’t need a silly foreign dogma…” when we can make our own (complete with scapegoats!)?

It wasn’t THAT long ago that the top tax bracket had to pay something like 88% of their income. That’s a lot compared to today, and the economy didn’t fall apart.

I’m not advocating that high of a tax rate or a maximum wage, I just don’t think something like that would destroy our economy. We’ve had recessions with both low and high taxes, as well as good economies.

I’d LIKE it if the government handled just the military and law enforcement, and cleaned out all the laws against stuff that doesn’t hurt anyone (except maybe the criminal), then we could probably get by with a 2% national sales tax and that would be it.

Anyone remember Reganomics – you do know how much the Government owes commercial lenders on behalf of the citizens, right ?

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Clinton’s administration made some serious surpluses in the final years of Office except they weren’t actually ‘surpluses’. Of course, it’s all lies, damn lie’s and statistics but the fact remains that the Government, on behalf of each and every citizen, owes commercial lenders over $20,000. Even Clinton’s sound economic policy increased the Debt and, of course, the loan repayments.

The interest re-payment on that amount is a serious drain and the money for the loans payments have to be redirected from being used to provide whatever it is the Government is supposed to provide with your money.

But, hey, Bush was elected on a tax cutting agenda so the debt,and the interest repayments, are only going one way.

Hence it will be some while (i.e. probably not your lifetime) before the Government can be accused of “stealing taxpayers money”

AynRandLover,

Smear rich people? I am only questioning the wisdom of worshipping rich people, obviously. Allow me to wax schmaltsy for two sentences. My dad was a Navy guy way back when. He used to tell me the simple shipboard philosophy that has been around since rope rigging days: “One hand for yourself, one for the ship.” I like this for some reason. Why should we pave an economic road and allow the first ones to succeed to burn down the bridge? Or push away the ladder? Whichever metaphor you prefer. There is no way this is justified logically, so you must resort to sentiment.

Again, why should we give up and say the billionaires beat us fair and square? We never signed on to a contest to end the system! I am cynical of wealth, because I know that people who are driven to control usually need it to achieve their ends. The elites semi-rationally look down on the so-called poor for being stupid enough for letting them walk all over them. That’s why communism is a virus that attacks a polarized nation, and it enters from the elite’s own dogma, entering through the religious dogma door of universal opposition and need for control.

This may interest you. I saw “The Fountainhead” the other night on TV with Gary Cooper and Patricia Neal. I caught a line in there that summed up the movie for me. It was Cooper’s diatribe against doing anything for free (charity) because it makes a slave of someone, “And slavery is not noble.” Now, I personally despise charity in favor of equality and Swedish-style equal opportunity, so I agree, but I disagree with the motive, since there is nothing more noble than slavery. Now, I also agree with the basic Nietzschean tenets that Rand is supplying here, ie, that a human cannot be tied to mediocrity. But, by the same token, a human cannot be sucked into thinking they must measure their worth by those beneath them, and this is the danger to such an idea.

Slaves, mental or physical, train their young to overcome slavery by being masters. That’s all they know. It never occurs to the majority to get off the parasite wheel of demonization. We should, I believe, be individualists, but foster a society that is conducive to it (egalitarianism) and exceed the alternative, which is to use elitism to foster a society opposed to achieving individualism. As the Greeks knew, freedom must go with justice and equality, or one has the freedom to own slaves and lives a contradiction (and enforces it), which is very anti-intellectual and un-philosophical. By the way, the ancient Greeks, and other free-thinking cultures like them, were often matched 10 to 1 against on the battle field and the seas and still beat their elitist-slave enemy armies. That’s greatness, and I’d rather admire a great culture (that allows everyone to seek their potential) than a weak noble who merely has the power to declare themselves great (and even has the power to destroy the competition, the ultimate cowardliness).

Note: A Slate magazine writer recently compared the egos of Gore and Bush, saying that Gore claims he is the smartest person in the room by sheer arrogance, while Bush stoops to limit admission to the room to achieve it. I don’t think Rand would be proud that the religiously sentimental elitist who is less articulate, scored a hundred points lower on a college admission test, and who got mediocre grades just won the presidency by less than a majority. That’s the definition of mediocre obsessed culture. Thanks.

Brian, I have to commend you - your ability to combine long words into paragraphs of complete drivel is simply amazing :slight_smile: