Is patriotism lowbrow?

Great Debates
1

No, I don’t think that patriotism should be considered something akin to Wal-Mart, Dale Earnhardt worship, or Ford versus Chevrolet dabates.

Still, I’ve observed an inverse corollary between expressions of patriotism and the visible income or social class of those doing the expression.

Example – two suburbs of Orlando, Florida – Winter Park and Winter Garden. Winter Park is an upscale community of high end homes, expensive shops, luxury cars, and yuppie 'tude. Winter Garden’s residents consist almost entirely of those working in the construction industry and the skilled trades, where the starter homes and single wides house refrigerators filled with Busch.

Drive through Winter Park, and you’ll see a few American flags flying on public buildings, a few displayed on residences, the occasional SUV with a flag sticker, and that’s it – it’s as if September 11 never happened. In Winter Garden, on the other hand – business signs reading “GOD BLESS AMERICA,” huge flags flying from pickup truck bumpers and CB antennae, lots of American flag and crying eagle shirts displayed among the citizenry, colored styrofoam cups shoved into chain link fences in the shape of flags, stickers of Calvin peeing on Osama bin Ladin, and so on. I’m in a middle class Orlando 'burb, and the level of public patriotism here is more or less between the two Winters – far more flags on houses and vehicles than Winter Park, but not as yee-haw-in-your-face as Winter Garden.

Back in Upstate New York, I’ve noticed the same lack of outward patriotism among the upper middle and upper classes. Go to affluent Amherst on July 4, and you’ll find a few flags here and there. Head off to middle-class, blue collar Tonawanda, and every third house is flying the Stars and Stripes. In working-class Cheektowaga, about half of the homes will be displaying the flag. The blue collar suburbs were also known for having more elaborate fireworks displays.

So, is patriotism really considered to be a lowbrow act?

2

I don’t think so. I think rich people just tend to be not as patriotic because they pay higher taxes (rightfully so :p).

If it is a “lowbrow” act, then good for them. Power to the people.

And in the future, please use a better term than “lowbrow.” Because they may be that way, but that doesn’t make them bad people, and lowbrow is such a negative term.

3

Sigh. This turns into a thread on politically correct terminology in just one followup.

How come you didn’t say “And in the future, please use a better term than ‘yuppie.’ Because they may be that way, but that doesn’t make them bad people, and yuppie is such a negative term.” Sorry, but you’re not a mod, I didn’t break any rules, and I don’t submit to the PC police.

4

I think there are many types of patriotism, one of which is plastering your house and car with USA paraphernalia - also known as decorative patriotism. If you think about it, the people who do that are the same class of people who partake in the same actions when their local sports team has gone to the playoffs or finals.

I rarely see fancy houses and fancy cars doused in football/baseball/basketball team stickers or flags. I think the same logic applies to decorative patriotism.

In my opinion, buying a $5 US flag (made in china most likely) and sticking it on your car does not make you patriotic. It’s nothing more than a fashion statement.

So, I would say that you can’t say all patriotism is low-brow, but I would surely say that decorative patriotism is.

5

Bravo!! Down with ‘PC’!!! I can remember when ‘PC’ was a thing on my desk that I played King’s Quest on…
Also: Rich pay more taxes… in a direct comparison, yeah but I don’t recall too horribly many Tax Cutting plans where the Gov. said ‘Hey! Lets give the Low income guys a break!’ It’s generally the wealthy that get the breaks. Also, decorative patriotism isn’t necesarily a fashion statement. I just think that patriotism en general is over rated, kinda like the dog pissing on the fence corner at the edge of the yard to mark his territory. Hence the ‘lowbrow’ mentality of groups of people who generally have two choices: Rebellion (been tried, usually get shot by FBI) or compliance: hence Do what THEY say, follow, keep head down, Patriotism. They just didn’t get a chance to think things through…

6

I was reading Chris Matthews new book today, “What I REALLY Think.” In it he describes an encounter he had as a young DC police officer with a veteran cop: “Chris, the poor man loves his country, because it’s all he’s [ital] got!” [/ital]

There’s a little bit of this, there. And also, you have to remember that our all volunteer military is recruited largely from our working and middle classes. Upper middle class kids have other ways of paying for college, see.

And on military bases, people still stop their cars, get out, and salute when the flag goes down and the bugle sounds the retreat.

And ifn’ ya wanna characterize that as “lowbrow,” I’ll be happy to kick your ass. :slight_smile:

7

Erasticity wrote:

King’s Quest?! Ew!!!

Actually, that tax cut George W. Bush signed into law earlier this year probably had the greatest effect on poor people. Before the tax cut, the first $6,000 of taxable income were taxed at 15%, but afterward the first $6,000 of taxable income were only taxed at 10%. In other words, the tax cut created a new 10% tax bracket at the bottom of the taxable-income scale where a 15% tax bracket had been sitting before.

8

I really don’t think so.

As a UCLA student I live on the West Side of Los Angeles, a very rich (and traditionally very politically liberal) area.

One would think that there would be few shows of patriotism here, since LA in general is one of the most apathetic cities in the nation, and liberal politics is much less conducive to a wave-the-flag mentality.

In fact, the reality is quite the opposite. All along Wilshire Blvd. from Westwood (UCLA campus) to Beverly Hills there are American flags on every light post. Every day, I see expensive Benzes, Jags, and (at one point) a Lamborghini with flags attached. Similar patriotism is visible in other rich (and poor) areas that I have encountered. Sure the flags are a little bit more well-made in rich areas, and the display is not as gaudy, but the expressions are the same.

I’m glad to be low-brow, if that’s what characterizes a patriot. Just lump me in with all those other low-brow idiots like Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln.

Hell, if history is any guide, the rich SHOULD be the most patriotic because they have the most to gain by supporting the country as it works towards restoring order in society once again. As we all know, (yes, this is a generalization) when there is greater order in a given society, business tends to flourish.

Patriotism and Giorgio Armani can coexist and complement each other – trust me, I’ve seen it on Rodeo Drive.

9

Can someone please explain to me why the rich pay relatively less taxes? That doesn’t make sense to me. I know it happens, but it just doesn’t make sense.

10

Uhhhh…They don’t.(Cite please) They actually pay the lion’s share of taxes, which is why I don’t have a problem with them getting breaks.(Even though I only make around $22,000 a year) If you worked for your money, you should keep it. I don’t have a tax table in front of me, but I will see if I can find the exact percentage. Maybe we need another thread on this subject.

Plato? Aristotle? Socrates? Morons!
~And I know I wasn’t right, but it felt so good… -Better Than Ezra

11

Ok, I found the tax tables*. (Sorry for the hijack elmwood)And no, the rich do not pay “relatively less taxes”.

In a nutshell, this is how it breaks down: (roughly)

0-27000 15%

$27000-65000 27.5%

$65000-136000 30.5%

$136000-297000 35.5%

$297000- 39.1%

Now explain to me how the rich are paying less? Also, in your first post, you state “I think rich people just tend to be not as patriotic because they pay higher taxes (rightfully so)”, but then turn around and say that they don’t…Make up your mind.

I apologize again elmwood…BTW, great response about the “PC” post!

  • 2001 Inst 1040 (Tax Tables) Tax Table and Tax Rate Schedules ( 68K) Adobe PDF
12

Patriotism may cover quite a broad spectrum, from the mild and harmless to the fiercely chauvinistic (nationalism). I have always assumed that the stronger forms of patriotism must be lowbrow (i.e. not terribly intellectual or cultured) because a modicum of intelligence and knowledge should highlight the obvious problems of strong patriotism.

Patriotism seems to me a clumsy and confused evolution of tribalism, which itself a concept that most argue has long been outdated.
“Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.” – George Bernard Shaw

“Patriotism is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime.” – Adlai E. Stevenson

13

In my experience, conspicuous displays of patriotic symbols are indeed a class marker in the US. (Note that class and economic status do not necessarily coincide, so a few flags-on-Jags may not be a counterexample.) However, I’m not sure we can infer from this that upper-class people are actually less patriotic – any more than we should assume they’re less fond of birds because fewer of them have pink flamingos on the lawn.

A couple of weeks ago, there was a discussion in GQ about why Europeans seem less given to flag-waving than Americans. One reason why upper-middle and upper class Americans don’t drape the house in bunting might be that they are more likely to have traveled to other countries where such a display is not considered appropriate, and to appreciate the reasons why not, but this is just a guess. In any case, I’d be cautious about basing value judgments on how people choose to display particular symbols; I don’t think either tying or not tying a flag to your car makes you a better person, or even accurately reflects your feelings about your country. It’s got a great deal more to do with how people customarily communicate these feelings in your particular subculture.

14

to view somebodies own nation as better then any other and be proud of it is ridiculous but on the other hand it is some kind of message to their natives… what that message is?: i am going to fight for your better future (to make my own futur better too)… it is masked egotism…

15

It seems to me that what is missing here is the idea that patriotism involves some element of duty of service (not necessarily military service) to the nation. In the last 20 years or so I have more and more encountered more and more people whose idea of patriotism is to pay as few taxes as possible and avoid military service. Tying a flag to your car antenna is not patriotism it is, as someone else has said, a fashion statement. I don’t want to see red, white and blue ribbons. I don’t need cheap and easy words. I want to see something that says that people have some idea that they owe something of themselves to the country.

16

Patriotism is the last refuge for a scoundrel.

17

If politicians and advertising agencies are correct then blind patriotism is certainly lowbrow. Everything from political policy to soft drink is sold by appealing to a sense of patriotism. The assumption must be that the vast majority of the country is going to believe that they owe it to their nation to buy the argument/product, or at least will feel a surge of national pride when they swallow the drink or the policy. This is the same vast majority that enjoys soap operas, apple pie and football – hardly highbrow tastes. Not that there is anything shameful in following a lowbrow pursuit, just that it is something that does not require much discriminating thought.

I have never seen luxury items sold using patriotism as a lever. Then it is just power, prestige or sex. This in now way supports the hypothesis (at first I thought it did), since the targets of the advertising are clearly thought to be susceptible to pretty basic manipulation. But it does not disprove the hypothesis either.

Television has caricatured the ultimate ‘lowbrow’ patriot in the 60s / 70s sit-coms ‘Till Death Us Do Part’ (UK) and ‘All In The Family’ (US) where the central character (Alf Garnett / Archie Bunker) is a working class right-wing bigot who worships the Queen / Flag. Both shows were extremely popular.

18

Well, let’s fire up a couple of relevant quotes from The Man himself:

19

jcmckaig quoted the Federal Taxable Income Tax brackets for single individual filers, then wrote:

Remember, “rich” does not necessarily mean “high taxable income.” Most rich people have a higher proportion of their income in the form of long-term capital gains. The tax rate for long term capital gains is a flat 20%, which is considerably lower than the 27.5%, 30.5%, 35.5% or 39.1% tax that would be applied if this income were in the form of, say, wages. (Plus, don’t forget that wages have additional Federal taxes applied to them above and beyond regular income tax – namely, Social Security tax and Medicare tax. Capital gains are not subject to either of these Federal wage taxes.)

20

Well it’s good that they pay more. We all know that they don’t need all that money, because obviously there are people who don’t make that much and can live. Share the wealth, or else you’re an asshole.