What about the Spanish Inquisition?

[xanaxjj]

In reference to the article “What’s the Deal with Witches and Broomsticks?”

Cecil, you didn’t even mention that thing about the Spanish Inquisition, or other folklore like using the broom to sweep away unwanted energies. I’ve heard that during the Inquisition, a witch would disguise her magical staff as a broom so she would appear to be merely a simple housewife when the inquisitors came to her door. Is this so? By the way, any idea what the REAL number of ACTUAL ‘witchcraft’ practicioners was that were executed? I’d like to put an end to all this debate of whether or not the witches’ saying, “We will never burn again” has any validity. I’d love to know if any of the real witches, if any, that burned, had used any real occult abilities or practices.

[Ice_Wolf]

Welcome to the SDMB, xanaxjj.
Link to the article you referred to:
What’s the deal with witches and broomsticks?

[C_K_Dexter_Haven]

<< I’d love to know if any of the real witches, if any, that burned, had used any real occult abilities or practices. >>

I can practically guarantee that there were no witches who used any “real” occult abilities.

[Dogface]

Spanish Inquisition? Doesn’t anybody actually study history?

Check out this:

http://www.cog.org/witch_hunt.html

This is from a neopagan web site.

The most salient sections:

c) Christianity’s Role in the Persecution For years, the responsibility for the Great Hunt has been dumped on the Catholic Church’s door-step. 19th century historians ascribed the persecution to religious hysteria. And when Margaret Murray proposed that witches were members of a Pagan sect, popular writers trumpeted that the Great Hunt was not a mere panic, but rather a deliberate attempt to exterminate Christianity’s rival religion.

Today, we know that there is absolutely no evidence to support this theory. When the Church was at the height of its power (11th-14th centuries) very few witches died. Persecutions did not reach epidemic levels until after the Reformation, when the Catholic Church had lost its position as Europe’s indisputable moral authority. Moreover most of the killing was done by secular courts. Church courts tried many witches but they usually imposed non-lethal penalties. A witch might be excommunicated, given penance, or imprisoned, but she was rarely killed. The Inquisition almost invariably pardoned any witch who confessed and repented.

Consider the case in York, England, as described by Keith Thomas (Religion and the Decline of Magic). At the height of the Great Hunt (1567-1640) one half of all witchcraft cases brought before church courts were dismissed for lack of evidence. No torture was used, and the accused could clear himself by providing four to eight “compurgators”, people who were willing to swear that he wasn’t a witch. Only 21% of the cases ended with convictions, and the Church did not impose any kind of corporal or capital punishment.

…

d) The Inquisition But what of the Inquisition? For many, the “Inquisition” and the “Burning Times” are virtually synonymous. The myth of the witch-hunting inquisition was built on several assumptions and mistakes, all of which have been overturned in the last twenty-five years. First, the myth was the logical extension of 19th century history, which blamed the persecutions on the Catholic Church. If the Church attacked witches, surely the Inquisition would be the hammer She wielded.

Second, a common translation error muddied the waters. Many records simply said that a witch was tried “by inquisition”. Some writers assumed that this meant “the” Inquisition. And in some cases it did. But an “inquisition” was also the name of a type of trial used by almost all courts in Europe at the time. Later, when historians examined the records in greater detail, they found that the majority did not involve the Inquisition, merely an inquisition. Today most historians are careful about this, but older and more popular texts (such as Rossell Hope Robbins’ Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology) still have the Inquisition killing witches in times and places where it did not even exist.

Third, the only witch-hunting manual most people have seen was written by an inquisitor. In the 1970’s, when feminist and Neo-Pagan authors turned their attention to the witch trials, the Malleus Maleficarum (Hammer of Witches) was the only manual readily available in translation. Authors naively assumed that the book painted an accurate picture of how the Inquisition tried witches. Heinrich Kramer, the text’s demented author, was held up as a typical inquisitor. His rather stunning sexual preoccupations were presented as the Church’s “official” position on witchcraft. Actually the Inquisition immediately rejected the legal procedures Kramer recommended and censured the inquisitor himself just a few years after the Malleus was published. Secular courts, not inquisitorial ones, resorted to the Malleus.

As more research was done and historians became more sensitive to the “an inquisition/the Inquisition” error, the inquisitorial witch-hunter began to look like a rare bird. Lamothe-Langon’s trials were the last great piece of “evidence”, and when they fell, scholars re-examined the Inquisition’s role in the Burning Times. What they found was quite startling. In 1258 Pope Alexander IV explicitly refused to allow the Inquisition from investigating charges of witchcraft: “The Inquisitors, deputed to investigate heresy, must not intrude into investigations of divination or sorcery without knowledge of manifest heresy involved.” The gloss on this passage explained what “manifest heresy” meant: “praying at the altars of idols, to offer sacrifices, to consult demons, to elicit responses from them… or if [the witches] associate themselves publicly with heretics.” In other words, in the 13th century the Church did not consider witches heretics or members of a rival religion.

…

In fact, in Spain the Inquisition worked diligently to keep witch trials to a minimum. Around 1609, a French witch-craze triggered a panic in the Basque regions of Spain. Gustav Henningsen (The Witches’ Advocate) documented the Inquisition’s work in brilliant detail. Although several inquisitors believed the charges, one skeptic convinced La Suprema (the ruling body of the Spanish Inquisition) that this was groundless hysteria. La Suprema responded by issuing an “Edict of Silence” forbidding all discussion of witchcraft. For, as the skeptical inquisitor noted, “There were neither witches nor bewitched until they were talked and written about.”

The Edict worked, quickly dissipating the panic and accusations. And until the end of the Great Hunt, the Spanish Inquisition insisted that it alone had the right to condemn witches – which it refused to do. Another craze broke out in Vizcaya, in 1616. When the Inquisition re-issued the Edict of Silence, the secular authorities went over their head and petitioned the king for the right to try witches themselves. The king granted the request, and 289 people were quickly sentenced. Fortunately the Inquisition managed to re-assert its monopoly on trials and dismissed all the charges. The “witches” of Cataluna were not so lucky. Secular authorities managed to execute 300 people before the Inquisition could stop the trials.

[John_W.Kennedy]

It is also necessary to point out that the Inquisition (the RC Church’s tribunal for heresy) and the Spanish Inquisition (an organization set up by the Church at the insistence of the King of Spain to track down Jews and Moslems – to which Protestants were later added) were two different bodies.

[monterey86]

“NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise…surprise and fear…fear and surprise… Our two weapons are fear and surprise…and ruthless efficiency… Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency…and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope… Our four…no… Amongst our weapons… Amongst our weaponry…are such elements as fear, surprise… I’ll come in again.”

Cardinal Ximinez of Spain
MP

[tracer]

*Originally posted by John W. Kennedy *
**It is also necessary to point out that the Inquisition (the RC Church’s tribunal for heresy) and the Spanish Inquisition (an organization set up by the Church at the insistence of the King of Spain to track down Jews and Moslems – to which Protestants were later added) were two different bodies. **

And the Roman Inquisition, started by Pope Paul III in 1542 in part as a reaction against the Protestant threat, was yet a 3rd different body.

[Dogface]

And, to muddy matters further, the Roman Inquisition is probably more responsible for developing what we would consider “fair trial” practices than any non-religious court of its day. They insisted upon little things like “evidence” and “corroboration”. Perhaps the paperwork that went along with a punishment was more than what went along with a dismissal or acquittal.

[fp3933]

The witch phenomenon is important because it reveals the total lack of divine insight by the Roman Catholic Church establishment, which claimed to have the sole authority of god on earth. If there had been validity to this claim, the truth about witches would have been revealed: that they do not exist and never did. History is rife with examples of lack of divine guidance in the RC. (crusades, oppositiion to scientific inquiry and results, murder of dissidents, etc)

[JRDelirious]

Umm… welcome to the Board, fp, but really that’s not the issue being discussed here. The question is about the factuality of some commonly-held notions about how, why, by whom, and to what extent, the witch-hunts of the so-called “burning times” were carried out. The RCC for purposes of this question is just a very powerful multinational sociopolitical organization, the one with the widest geographic and temporal range of action – and that is hard to dispute. As is that they were not the only ones to get it all wrong.

[John_W.Kennedy]

The witch phenomenon is important because it reveals the total lack of divine insight by the Roman Catholic Church establishment, which claimed to have the sole authority of god on earth. If there had been validity to this claim, the truth about witches would have been revealed: that they do not exist and never did.

…which is exactly what the RCC has insisted for nearly all its history. For some reason or other, during the Renaissance, the ancient pagan “witch” superstition sprouted up in RCism for a couple of centuries. To make it worse, Protestantism picked up the ball and ran with it.

[Dogface]

*Originally posted by fp3933 *
**The witch phenomenon is important because it reveals the total lack of divine insight by the Roman Catholic Church establishment, which claimed to have the sole authority of god on earth. If there had been validity to this claim, the truth about witches would have been revealed: that they do not exist and never did. History is rife with examples of lack of divine guidance in the RC. (crusades, oppositiion to scientific inquiry and results, murder of dissidents, etc) **

Typical newbie post–didn’t even bother to read any bit of the thread. Here, junior, take a gander at this and see if that might impede your screaming ignorance:

http://www.cog.org/witch_hunt.html

[GnominClature]

Five research projects are finished and a Spanish Inquisition thesis is next. Excellent work!

[Rodrigo]

*Originally posted by monterey86 *
**“NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise…surprise and fear…fear and surprise… Our two weapons are fear and surprise…and ruthless efficiency… Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency…and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope… Our four…no… Amongst our weapons… Amongst our weaponry…are such elements as fear, surprise… I’ll come in again.”

Cardinal Ximinez of Spain
MP **

Uhhhhhh?
Was that a quote or what? SO many elipses make almost any quote meaningless. I’d love to see a source better than “Cardinal Ximinez of Spain MP”
(Was he a Member of Parliament)
Inquisition trial were never by surprise.Inquisitors anounced their arrivals and proclaimed a special time (usually 30 days) in which anyone could turn himself in and he would be let go with minimal penalty.
The purpose of the inquisition was, at least in hteory and also for the most part in practice, to get people to repent,not to burn or kill (which they did, no one is denying that)

[JohnM]

Rodrigo, that is a quote from the Monty Python Spanish Inquisition sketch. Next thing, you’ll say that you’ve never seen Monty Python and the Holy Grail!

[Chronos]

Uhhhhhh?
Was that a quote or what?

Yes, it was a quote, but not from any serious source. It’s from a Monty Python skit, who (in case you’re not familiar with them), are a comedy troupe in England. The ellipses are there in the original; the inquisitor in the skit is fumbling his introduction, to the point that he has to start over.

[Kaptain_Karnage]

*Originally posted by Chronos *
**Yes, it was a quote, but not from any serious source. It’s from a Monty Python skit, who (in case you’re not familiar with them), are a comedy troupe in England. The ellipses are there in the original; the inquisitor in the skit is fumbling his introduction, to the point that he has to start over. **

Just some minor quibbles:

• How can you suggest Monty Python are not a serious source? They are the only reason I ever learnt amount things such as the Spanish Inquisition, SPAM, Lumberjacks and “What did the Roman’s ever do for us?”.

• Sadly they must be refered to in the past tense as they are no more although it’s great to still see a few of them on telly every now and again.

Anyway, slighty off topic. Apologies.
“And now for something completely different”

[Chronos]

Oh, I never said they weren’t erudite, or educational, or intellectual. They are all of those things. But serious, they’re not. No insult or slight intended by that.

[Rodrigo]

I dropped the ball completely.
In my defence I’ve got to say we don’t get much Monty Python in South America, and the only MP I’ve seen was one on Columbus.

Still…MY BAD

[maddoxa]

this seems more on witchhunts than the inquisition, so I’ll contribute 2 bits. There are 2 graves in Scotland for women supposedly burnt as witches. The problem is, if you look at census records, they continued to live many years after their ‘burial’. (unlike many Southern (US) voters, they continued to breathe and have families, too)