What about those Hindus?

Great Debates
21

Libertarian and Durno;

I’m sorry my lack of understanding has frustrated you, but I thank you for taking the time to help me understand your position.

I believe that what you are saying is that it is the spirit of God that is important. If one behaves in the manner that the Christian God orders and has love in their heart, it makes no difference who they think they are praying to. No matter what name they call him by, if thier spirit is Christian, then they are praying to the Christian God and there is no problem.

Durno did say that he/she believes there are other spiritual entities and that a person could be praying to one of them, in which case he would be, well, wrong and not addressing god. OK.

Libertarian, while I think I understand your position, it is not what I had been taught as a Christian and it is the first time I have heard this argument. I think the god you describe sounds fair, just and reasonable, but he also doesn’t sound like the Christian God that I’ve heard about. It has always been my understanding that, in Christian doctrine, it is essential that one recognise that God had a son, this son came to Earth and died for the sins of all God’s people, and that he was then raised from the dead and went to siteth at the right hand of the Father. I can accept that one who is praying to Shiva may be, without his knowledge, praying to the Christian God and that God would forgive the misnomer. But I’d never heard it said before that one could be saved without aknowledgeing the story of Christ. It leaves me to wonder what the point of trying to convert people would be, but perhaps that is not a line of Christianity that you subscibe to. I think your position is very intereseting and I thank you for sharing it.

Durno, if you have any patience left to spare on me, I would ask you to clarify this: Are you saying that anyone who is praying with the proper spirit is praying to the Christian God, but that it is possible for people to have the wrong spirit and so they are actually praying to a different entity? If so, how would a person know the difference?

“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal

22

Tris:

I don’t feel that I can add to the subject any further, although I am not sure that I am wholly comfortable with all the details of your precise interpretation.

However, to finish off, I wd like to pick you up on a small comment you made in passing:

IMHO, theology which is not lived out and rooted in experience of life with the living God is indeed sterile, but “spiritual” experience without theology is futile also, because there is no way to evaluate or direct it. You need the map AND the journey.

23

Lucky:

I am not at all surprised to hear that I am different. The main reason I don’t go to church is the politics; but another is that most churches act like they have God in a box at their place.

When a man, whatever his culture, sees Truth, he sees my God and I see his. Recall that when the disciples asked Jesus to show them the Father, He replied, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” It’s the same thing. Whoever has seen Truth, Love, Freedom, these things, he has seen God.

“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler

24

Lucky:

Oh well, since you ask so nicely :)…

…although in some ways this is quite complex to deal with, so it will be far more a question of asking you to be patient with me.

I was very anxious not to give any credence at all to the idea that all and any spiritual activity leads to God without further ado. There is a growing line of “thought” which says in effect: “Pray to whoever you want for whatever you want, use anything you like for ‘worship’ (sex, drink and drugs - whatever you want) - fervour is all that matters”. This is of course nonsense - dangerous nonsense.

I believe, as I said, that there are other spiritual beings besides God. The commandment is quite explicit, that God alone is to be worshipped, and Jesus in the NT emphasises this further. It says in the Bible to “test the spirits”, to see if they are from God. Do they acknowledge the lordship of Christ? If so, then they themselves will tell you to worship Him; if not, then they are not of God.

This takes care of demons, angels, wandering shades and so on, which occur in the Bible. The only other major faith to occur there however is - obviously - Judaism, which shares the same God, so we have to give further thought to what to make of other faiths which are not obviously the worship of demons or nature spirits (or indeed the utterly inert, since people are quite capable of worshipping treetrunks or meteorites.)

When I was an evangelical, it was very simple: everyone who was not of like mind with us was wrong. We used regularly to pray for the conversion of Catholics, so I need not spell out what our view of other religions was.

However, over time, as under force of circumstances I had to move away from the strict evangelical view and also as I have had more contact with people who followed other faiths but who seemed to me to be as godly as Christians (and that includes Buddhists), I had to change my beliefs.

In particular, as I mentioned briefly before, I have had considerable exposure to Vaishnavite Hinduism, in the form of the worship of Krishna, so I will concentrate on that.

Without giving you a lecture on Krishna, which wd probably be inaccurate anyway, all I will say is that I cannot believe that this religion is anything other than a genuine form of worship of the same God whom I know through Christianity. There are many different emphases, and there are numerous points of detail with which I disagree, especially when it comes to fine detail, such as dietary rules and such; there are huge differences in cosmology, and many basic doctrines are different (such as reincarnation); but for all this, I believe to recognise the one God the heart of it. What is different is the vision or revelation.

I can’t believe that God would have entirely neglected the rest of the world outside Palestine for so many thousand years. The Bible says that God hates nothing He has made, and that must include the East Asians and the rest of the world.

Tris’s point is vital, however: everything is underpinned and given meaning by the incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ, and without this, I do not believe any faith would have anything meaningful to say.

25

Lucky(2)

Going on to the question of whether in that case there is any real difference between Christianity and the other faiths, and any point being one rather than another, I believe very strongly that there is.

Even if all major faiths have at their base a real vision of God, not all visions are of equal value. All are partial, not because God keeps His cards close to His chest for the sheer pleasure of making us guess, but because we are finite but God is infinite; so all will be incomplete(I have made this point before). Of them all, my belief is that Christianity has by far the most complete and direct revelation of God <u<>on the essentials of redemption and salvation. My Vaishnava housemate says that in his view Buddhism has a more complete revelation of compassion, and Krishna a more complete revelation of joy, which I can only agree with on the basis of my limited understanding; but Christianity is the one when it comes to the nuts and bolts of why we are in a mess, and what to do about it / what God has done about it.

26

Who says there is only one God?

He may be just a junior god reporting to a mega-god in a meta-universe.

There may be an infinity of universes, each with it’s own god.

Before I get flamed for inventing gods, I remind you that it’s a time-honoured tradition.
Mankind has been inventing gods since antiquity.

This space for rent.

27

Lucky says:

Someone will probably get pissed off at me for this, but let me just state that this whole incident took place a long time before Jesus was born, so I don’t think anyone here was a Christian. Secondly, I personally believe that God is so ephemeral that yes, of course he would recieve prayers to idols. The point is, he doesn’t LIKE it very much. My own personal beliefs state that this applies only to Jews, though, and people who are interested in following the Seven Noahide Laws, of which one is to not worship idols. God is big enough for everyone to talk to him in their own way. Saying that there’s only one way to pray is, IMO, limiting God, and that is a contradiction in terms.

~Kyla

“You couldn’t fool your mother on the foolingest day of your life if you had an electrified fooling machine.”

28

**Durnovarianus ** mentions in response to my observation that we < my associates of differing religions and I > are untroubled by theology

There are times when I talk about theology. I even argue about it, now and then, among Christians, or with those who purport to speak for Christians. I do have theological positions. I was only assuring those among the readership whom are not Christians that I, at least, believe that Christ lives for them as well. I know the theology is unconventional. I am untroubled by that.

Make of your heart a dwelling place for the Lord. If you live a life dedicated to the belief that love is a thing worthy for its own sake, and that it should be given freely to each and every soul, theology is not important. You love God, and he loves you. The rest is words and music.

<P ALIGN=“CENTER”>Tris</P>

29

Tris:
I am sorry I misunderstood you

Wally:
I have explained many times why I speak of one God - this is the God that is the “mega-God”, in your terms, the one that creates eveything else, the one that you cannot go beyond.

Kyla:
What on earth do you mean by “ephemeral” in the context of your post above? Also, you clearly did not stop to think of the context of the event about which you are speaking, If you do, I think you will realise just why prayers addressed by Israelites to an idol wd not impress God much. Further, please think of how effective it is likely to be to pray to a block of wood - “O great block of wood, please buy me a Mercedes” - I think not. It didn’t work for the prophets of Baal, it won’t work for you. What we are talking about is praying to God as God but by another of His names.

30

I’m just wondering how long the prophets of Baal held sway? Christianity has been in existence for approx 2000 years. Judaism for a while before that (I don’t know how long). Hinduism, I believe, predates both.

Anyway, if Baal-worship lasted 2016 years, or however long, it obviously worked for them. If Hinduism has been around for, whatever, 4000 years, it’s working for them.

Most people in the world are not Christian, so something is working for them.

I don’t believe that anyone can prove that any religion “works” other than by saying, “It works for me.” Nor can anyone say that any religion doesn’t work. What would be the litmus test? Number of believers? Success in battle? Total tithes received?

Whatever works for you, fine. Please remember that seeking your deity is an admirable and honorable goal, but saying that you’ve found him and that you know what he wants is a little presumptive–since he hasn’t told anyone else.

31

– Tris
Yeah, what Tris said. God speaks a language more fundamental than English or Swahili or Jewish or Chinese; God speaks and the listener may later try to put it into (necessarily much clumsier) human words to share with others.

As a 3rd-tier listener, a modern person hears the voice of God as heard directly by persons eons ago being explained by modern clergy or described in writing by someone who wrote it all down at some point. The modern person hears the version called Hinduism and the version called Christianity and perhaps says the messages aren’t the same, or (often enough) that actually they are.

Designated Optional Signature at Bottom of Post

32

Don’t exclude the possibility that the modern person hears God direct too

33

Rysdad:

The whole point about the prophets of Baal was that when it came to the crunch, it didn’t work, and the expression is now a by-word for spectacular failure…(I Kings 18)

The worship of Baal was also (until then) extremely popular - I think of it as a sort of equivalent of “success theology” now.

34

StrTrkr said:

See, you’re pretty much just like the other atheists on this site. You just disagree on that one last god… :wink:

35

Exactly right, David.

I have to say that I’m absolutely stunned by the responses here. I feel like I’m speaking to people of the B’hai faith. I had no idea that Christianity was so flexible. Until now, I was dead certain that belief in Christ as the messiah was the consistent, unshakable backbone of Christianity. But all those who have responded here have not taken this position.

To be perfectly honset, it sounds to me like a case of stretching and bending the faith to cover areas that don’t seem quite right. Or perhaps those of you who have contributed here are simply not run-of-the mill Christians, and you hold beliefs which differ from the mainstream. Or maybe I’m just not in tune with the mainstream.

Are there any Chistians out there who do feel that belief in Christ is essential, and that one must actually know and believe the Biblical story to obtain eternal salvation? If so, what’s your take on people praying to other gods?

“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal

36

(to paraphrase) “the mainstream…I don’t think it means what you think it means”

37

Lucky:

Just to clarify at least my own position, belief in (the divinity of) Christ is essential. But Christ is not in a box. In other words, it isn’t a rah-rah-go-my-team thing.

A story I heard about Meher Baba, Bhuddist, and one of his students goes like this:

Student: “Do you believe that Jesus is God?”

Baba: “Oh, yes. Oh yes, indeed he is God.”

Student: “Why?”

Baba: “Because he said he is.”

Student: “But anyone can make such a claim. If I say that I am God, will you believe that I am?”

Baba: “No.”

Student: “Why not?”

Baba: “Because you are not.”

“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler

38

What Lib’n said in the preceding post, plus what I wrote earlier, wh please to read.

39

Forgive please my thick-headedness, but I am apparently misunderstanding you once again.

So, belief in Chirst as the messiah is essential, but one can hold this belief without knowing it? One can be praying to whomever, and as long as they are seeking Truth, Love etc., they are, in fact, accepting Christ?

I can understand the “I call him God you call him Allah” argument, I’d just never heard it extended to include belief in Christ. And I still don’t understand it (sorry). How can you say that belief in Christ as the messiah is essential to salvation, but then say that one doesn’t actually have to know Christ to hold that belief? If only a desire for Truth etc is required, then why do both Judism and Chirstianity exist? Isn’t Christ’s divity the main point of discord there?

Let me try to ask this question in as point blank a manner I can as maybe it will help. According to Christianity, is it neccessary that one know the story of Chirst and accept it is truth in order to be saved?

“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal

40

good morning friends,

i have always been in awe of the arrogance of religions that claim to hold the only truth. the statement:

is used by many as the “proof” of the validity of christianity.

to accept this statement as fact, it is neccesary to accept the new testament as the “only true revealed word of god”

each religion has sacred texts claiming to be the “only true revealed word of god.” why would the new testament’s claim be more valid than the rest?

i think that the answer is faith. your truth is found where your faith rests.
imagine god as a large mountain. we all live in towns surrounding this mountain. we all have different languages, cultures and customs. from our homes, we can all see the mountain, and we all call the mountain by a different name. is is, however, the same mountain. we all just see different aspects of it.

sadly, when we get together at the visitor’s center, rather than enjoy the beauty and the majesty of the mountain, we spend all our time arguing about who owns it, and what to call it.

“don’t get strung out by the way that i look, don’t judge a book by it’s cover” (tim curry as dr. franknfurter in rhps)