Durno;
You have asked me a couple of times to please read your posts. I have read each of them when you posted them and have re-read them each at your request. I’m sorry if I’m missing your point, but I just wanted to let you know that I do read them.
“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal
Lucky
Please excuse me - I am sorry for assuming that you hadn’t read what I put (although you may well be the first to do so - I do not write very briefly or clearly). You are clearly a very good-natured and patient person!
You ask a very direct question which deserves as direct an answer as I can manage; but this is not entirely simple.
Tris reminded us all quite rightly that it is for not for us to say who will be saved and who not; all I will add to that is that on the Day of Judgment, I think there will be many surprises both pleasant and unpleasant. Among these - and this is based on my personal experiences of people as much as on any formal belief - some who call themselves Christians will not be saved, and some who do not, will be.
I think I can see from the way you phrase the question why, even with the good will you are showing, we are not altogether meeting on this. It is not the story, the dogma or the syllable Christ which we must know to be saved; it is the personChrist. (This again is a point which Tris made.)
Christianity is nothing if not a mystic religion; Christians believe that after the resurrection, Christ is now alive in the world and can be encountered and known spiritually by each of us personally, if we are willing to listen to the promptings of the spirit. I will not discuss this any further, at least not here. I am putting it forward as a sincere statement of my belief of how Christianity works, and on that level I must ask you to accept it for the purposes of explaining my position.
Given that that is how I see the operation of Christ in the world, does it now make more sense if I talk about adherents of non-Christian faiths nevertheless knowing Christ? I believe they can know Christ in the spirit, through the medium of their own faith, without being “Christians”.
Now, the Bible on many many subjects works on a “need to know” basis: we are told very definitely and clearly that salvation is through Christ and Christ alone, and that if we wish to ensure the salvation of others, we should ensure that they receive the message of Christ.
We are NOT told how grace and salvation work outside the orbit of Judaeo-Christianity, either temporally or geographically. We do not know what God’s arrangements are for those who never receive the message of Christ. We do not know how God views the situation of some-one born to another faith who, when presented with the Christian message, is presented with it in such a way or under such circumstances that they cannot accept it.
We are not told any of these things, and our answers are guesswork; what we do know is that effective salvation is through Christ and only Christ. Therefore, although I hope that those who love God in other faiths may come to salvation through the grace of God, the Bible does not say this. I am however definitely told that if they believe in Christ, they are sure of salvation, and that if we love them, then we will ensure that they have the choice available.
Finally, I do not believe that it is all one, and that we can pray to whom we please - or not at all - and believe whatever we like - or nothing at all - and it will still somehow be all right on the night. Nor do I believe that someone who has once known Christ is in the same position as someone who has not - but that is another issue.
I hope that helps.
Durno, I have to ask, how often has Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) worked “in crunch time”? It seems to me that when (pick a disaster) occurred, quite a few people we’re pleading for God’s help…but they still died.
At one point, that seems to have been the official position of the religion, even to the point of destroying other “primitive” religions by force. Thankfully, by and large we seem to have a “kindler, gentler” Christianity around today. In that sense I suppose religions change to reflect the culture of the day.
I don’t have much of an opinion on whether Hindus et al might be really worshipping the same god. But there are currently some hundreds of different religions, and I would guess thousands throughout history. I suspect some of them would take great offense to a claim that they were actually worshipping the Christian god under a different name.
–
peas on earth
bantmof
Probably - but sticking to Hindus, since they’re the ones mentioned in the OP, [most branches of] Hinduism wouldn’t, AFAIK. Many Hindus are happy to include Jesus as an avatar or incarnation of God - there are so many anyway that one more is all to the good - and are happy with the idea of one God in many forms. Even Krishna is an incarnation of Vishnu. God is God, finally.
Rysdad: well, what can I say? Horses for courses, I suppose. I believe God does still give signs today - presumably they just don’t make the news…
Lucky: the answer I gave is not perfect, I know; it is the best I can do for now, however. I suppose I am still working this one through for myself to an extent, and it was really helpful for me to have the opportunity to sort out my own ideas, so: many thanks!
Lucky:
You’re too hard on yourself. You should see my intellectual spasms over in the Atheist Religion thread!
Let’s try this way: can you tell me the differences among Absolute Truth, Absolute Love, and Absolute Justice? Language can only take you so far. Close your eyes now, and go the rest of the way.
“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler
Please provide some kind of evidence that any of you knows what you are talking about.
Other than citing the Christian Bible (which only proves that the Bible exists, not a god) none of you have even tried to address the idea that all of the above religions & evey other religion may be utter rubbish.
A Divine Being may indeed be so ineffable that nobody, absolutely nobody understands anything at all about that being.
Just being my usual Deist self.
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Well, if He’s so divine, he certainly ought to understand Himself pretty well — well enough to explain Himself to us, wouldn’t ya think?
“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler
He failed miserably. No wonder the religions of the world are so fragmented. In Christianity alone, there must be a hundred flavours.
A friendly piece of advice for God if he’s reading this board:
Follow the three C’s of communication: be clear, be concise, be consistent.
Do not exhibit attributes unworthy of a god.
We mortals have a low opinion of jealousy, deception, favorism, mass murder, and whimsy.
Please stop it at once. Your first priority should be to repair your image with the atheists.
And next time, don’t palm off your responsibilities on your kid.
This space for rent.
Daniel - I do believe the OP implied we were to assume a deity for purposes of this discussion.
Rysdad - regarding ‘crunch time,’ I’m not sure but it sounds like that’s part of what we’re just about finished beating to death in the ‘Why Pray?’ thread. Might give it a quick scan, at least.
To all: I think Durno’s (and Tris’) point that, in Durno’s words, “It is not the story, the dogma or the syllable Christ which we must know to be saved; it is the personChrist” is key.
My expectation is that those who pray to a god in a manner that opens them up to contact with a Person will find what (or Who) they are looking for; those who come to their god with the goal of manipulating that god to further their own aims won’t find anything there.
Those elements are mixed in all of us, of course, but if there is a Judgment Day, I believe there will be a lot of surprises. I personally expect to see physicist Richard Feynman in heaven: which counts more in God’s eyes, do you think - that he was a confirmed atheist, or that he cared passionately about the truth?
Geez, Wally, I understand the rest of your post, but what do you have against whimsy?
“From some other planet, I get this funky high on yellow sun” – Matchbox 20
I screwed up, Fire. I guess I was feeling a little whimsical. 
This space for rent.
Wow, so many points exchanged, and such regard for understanding each other! Everyone pat yourself on the back! Better yet, pat each other, it makes you feel better, and it’s a lot easier.
On with it.
Crunch time first: Miracles do happen, and there are plenty of folks who believe that the live only because of them. For the argument about proof, see the thread we had on that one. But, I would like to make the point again, that the “mysterious” purposes of the Lord might not look like sense from the point of view of the earthly witness, because it has more to do with the infinite realm of our afterlife. Here on the Earth, we choose, and often we choose to do evil. Here on Earth, evil can triumph.
Theological correctness, next: I cannot encourage anyone to become a Hindu, or a Zoroastrian, or a Druid. That would be false witness, because I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and the Savior of all mankind. I believe that you would be much blessed to seek Him out, and know Him. I have read much of the writings of Zen, and some of Tao, and of philosophies of the world. I did not find there what came to me from Jesus, but I have no gift of prophecy.
I am bidden to bring the good news of Salvation to any that wish to hear it. I have no authority to judge your soul, on any level, nor your behavior, from the point of view of sinfulness. Nor have I the authority to contend with you on matters of theology. If you seek God, I believe you will find Him. If you wish my fellowship in that journey, it is yours.
I think shopping is a sin. I am pretty sure it is a sin to get stinking drunk, especially if you should be doing something else, and you almost assuredly should be doing something else. But faith is not about sin. Faith is about love, and hope. Not being sinful is nice. It is kind of a weenie cop out sort of way to feel good about yourself. Feeling good about yourself is getting close to pride, and that is a sin too.
You see, I think that sin is not what it is about. Love is what it is about. You should be doing everything you do, and everything you can do, to make more love in the world. Simple, huh? Not easy, by the way, but simple. “Faith, Hope, and Love, these three abide; and the greatest of them is Love.” Theology only matters if you get lost. If you are a Roman Soldier, and you meet the Lord on the road, He will grant the miracle you ask. And you will believe it, and not have to send someone to check. He will not even ask you to convert, but will simply give you what you need out of love, because you have asked Him, out of love.
I think that every one who will be saved, shall be saved. I have no idea how He will do it. But I have serene faith that He will do it. I know many people who cannot understand Him. I know many that cannot speak His name. I know many that cannot believe that He exists. Theirs are the burdens of the world. I have faith that He loves them, and will not abandon them. Salvation is not a club, nor a test, nor an inheritance, nor is it a goal or a task. It is grace. Given by Him, out of love. You don’t deserve it. Get over yourself, you are not the point, nor am I.
To any Christian who judges another, I cry to you. As you have given judgement, so then shall you be judged. Do not surrender yourself to the judgement of man, by making yourself a judge. Love your neighbor, without judgement, and be loved by the Lord, as you have given love. Be fearless in your faith, that it needs no justification here on the Earth, for it is not a faith in the Earth, but faith in God. To each of your brothers, give love, and ask no praise for it. It is the least of what you are living for.
And, by the way, the Lord Jesus showed his wrath in the Temple. He admonished, and punished those who made the Temple a marketplace. To every other sinner he showed mercy. The money that is gained in the Temple will be heavy indeed. As heavy as a millstone, on the day that he raises up the Faithful. I would not touch such money, for my very life. Fear overwhelms me, to even think of it, and I weep.
<P ALIGN=“CENTER”>Tris</P>
OKAY, I’m not gonna touch Tris’ post.
What I meant by ‘ephemeral’ is that I don’t think God is a guy sitting in a chair on a cloud. He is everywhere.
Furthermore, I wasn’t thinking so much of the actual case of the Golden Calf as I was of Hindus. If you had actually read my post, you would see that I would NOT worship a block of wood, as that goes against my religious beliefs.
I don’t understand this sentence. Is there a word missing somewhere?
~Kyla
“You couldn’t fool your mother on the foolingest day of your life if you had an electrified fooling machine.”
Durno;
At last I believe I understand your position. Thanks for your patience and kindness in explaining it to me. I’ve learned a lot of interesting things through this discussion.
Lib;
I hope your question about Absolute Truth, Absolute Love and Absolute Justice was rhetorical, because it’s going to take me some time to wrap my mind around that one! Thanks for your interesting and thought provoking contributions to this thread.
Tris;
Though I know I didn’t respond to your posts directly, I did read them and I thank you for taking the time to write such clear and detailed posts about your beliefs. I found them most helpful.
Daniel;
I’m not going to address your question because this thread was not about proving/disproving the existence of God/god(s). For purposes of discussion, I was assuming the existence of a deity, as RTFirefly nicely pointed out (Thanks, RT). If you are interested in debating the existence of God, I think there are a least two or three threads having that discussion already.
“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal
Kyla
This has been a really good thread, thanks very largely to Lucky and Tris, and I’ve learnt a lot from it. I don’t want to spoil that by bickering now. Briefly to your direct questions:
“ephemeral” means “here today and gone tomorrow”; you don’t mean that.
Although I assure you that I did read what you wrote, I should obviously have done so more carefully. I am sorry to have misinterpreted your remarks on the Golden Calf and I retract any suggestion that you personally might worship a block of wood. However, thank you for the opportunity of bringing in the prophets of Baal…
There is not in fact a word missing in the sentence you quote.
Best wishes.
Triski has come down with the theological wim-wams again. Someone get him his Pepto liquid & his[diskworld reference] dried frog pills[/diskworld], please.
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Well, if I am having theological wim-wams, a thread on the theological point of view of Christians on the spiritual state of Hindus seems as appropriate a venue as any. I suppose my post did become a bit passionate. I don’t apologize for that, but I do see that it might not appeal to some.
CABBAGE, n. A familiar kitchen-garden vegetable about as large and wise as a man’s head.
**Ambrose Bierce **(1842-1914?)
When I was taking new testament religion in college (Baylor), the professor said how Christianity was the dominant religion in Korea. At the time I was still somewhat religious and found this somehow impressive.
As I learned more, I found out that not all religions require exclusiveness. Sure, maybe a plurality of Koreans attend a Christian church at some time, but they do not necessarily abandon their native faith. Many priests and rabbis have spent time at Buddhist monastaries, although I have heard of no Baptist ministers doing the same. NOt knowing a world about the Hindu faith,
I still can assume that the idea of Jesus being one who was specially touched by the universal soul could be accepted by Hindus. Most protestant faiths I doubt would return the existential favor.
When I was taking new testament religion in college (Baylor), the professor said how Christianity was the dominant religion in Korea. At the time I was still somewhat religious and found this somehow impressive.
As I learned more, I found out that not all religions require exclusiveness. Sure, maybe a plurality of Koreans attend a Christian church at some time, but they do not necessarily abandon their native faith. Many priests and rabbis have spent time at Buddhist monastaries, although I have heard of no Baptist ministers doing the same. NOt knowing a world about the Hindu faith,
I still can assume that the idea of Jesus being one who was specially touched by the universal soul could be accepted by Hindus. Most protestant faiths I doubt would return the existential favor.