What all is good & bad about america?

With people on one end saying we are evil, dangerous & corrupt, and on the other saying we are on the backbone of civilization (the truth is probably in the middle, like always), what all good & bad things has this country done?
Good

Revoultionized communications. had a large hand in the invention, modernization & proliferation of the TV, radio, internet & telephone.

Fought a war and played a decisive role against Nazism & communism

Mass production of the automobile

Flight was invented here

Creating an endless list of medical technologies

donate about $8 billion or so a year in humanitarian aid

Citizens have pretty good civil, political & human rights.

Helping to protect Israel, a land filled with holocaust survivors and refugees, from its neighbors (i wonder how many replies i will get for that statement)

Bad

Stealing land from indians, killing millions

Slavery

racism

sexism

Supporting evil governments during the cold war (Guatemala, el salvador, iraq, Indonesia)

Creating the atom bomb (this one is up to debate, as the a-bomb might actually make war less desirable since the consequences are too serious now)

A propensity for war (again, this is up to debate as some of our wars result in somewhat better lives for the people who experience them. Panama, South Korea, Kuwait, iraq, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, the cold war)

Not doing as much as we can to promote better lives abroad

Spending much of our scientific, engineering & medical research on luxuries for the west rather than worldwide necessities

because many of the bad things are pretty much universal for any country (slavery, stealing land from locals, racism, sexism) and virtually every country either did them or does them today i don’t think that they really tilt the scale against us that much. Its like condemning one person for breathing out of 190, i can’t think of one that doesn’t do that so i fail to see why its more evil for the US to do it.

Chili cheese fries. The existence of Chili cheese fries makes up for a multitude of sins.

Chili cheese fries. The existence of Chili cheese fries makes up for a multitude of sins.

I may be mistaken, but I think the United States is the only country born out of a violent revolution that has actually lasted. We’ve lasted as a republic, with one constitution. I think that’s pretty remarkable.

Ice. There is plenty here and we give it out freely. I am a big fan of ice.

Earl: Two constitutions. The current one is the replacement version.

Good:

Written constitution (both of them).

Peaceful transfer of power, even during civil war.

Independent judiciary.

Moon landings.

We also had what amounted to a bloodless coup about 10 years after that revolution, basically overthrowing the existing government and creating a brand new one. One of the best parts of that Constitution was how it was made possible but not trivial to change it.

I think overall the U.S. as a nation and the American public are one of, if not the most, generous people you will find anywhere. Americans want to fix everything, and take problems head-on. As a result they are sometimes perceived as meddling where they should not.

Americans tend to talk too loud.

The U.S. invented jazz, rock ‘n’ roll and gospel music. Whether any of these is a plus or minus will vary from person to person! We have not produced very much good opera or other “serious” music as compared to France, Italy and Germany.

The government and religion are forbidden by the Constitution from meddling in each other’s business. There are few countries anywhere that I can think of where there is such diversity in religion.

There smaller idiosyncracies too numerous to mention. We are a nation built (except for the indigenous people we displaced) of and by immigrants. The only other place I can think of that this is true of to such a large extent is Australia and until recently most of Australia’s immigrants have been almost exclusively northern European.

Unless I’ve misunderstood your stipulations, you are mistaken. Many former colonies had to fight a war of independence to achieve nationhood. Haiti springs to mind as it may have been the next to fit this criteria (I take Haiti to have “lasted” despite unrest, though perhaps you meant to stipulate some kind of link between your first sentence and your last). Bolivia may have been the next after that. Several African countries fit this description.

I suppose lasting as a republic with one constitution is a good thing–at any rate a testimony to the pliability of our institutions. But is that somehow a more virtuous thing than evolving into a constitutional monarchy without any written constitution at all (Britain)? Or than having developed from the middle ages into a democratic federation (Switzerland)?

As to the OP, I’m not really a stark contrast (good vs. bad) sort of person. Mass production of automobiles, for example, doesn’t strike me as necessarily “good.” Technology is a means that may serve good and bad purposes. If we are so irresponsible as to allow automobile emissions to harm our environment irreparably will anyone in the future think of this as having been good?

On a more personal note, I think that television was a really unfortunate invention: that is, a technology that ended up serving mainly bad ends. (Radio, movies and the internet are great though.) Television, precisely as it developed in the United States, has encouraged mental passivity, intellectual conformity, overconsumption, misinformation, and obesity. I often wish it wasn’t invented as I’m convinced we’d be a more functional democracy without it.

That is the crux of the automobile and t.v. issue. Yes, we had best find ways of controlling the automobile pollution. OTOH, the internal combustion at jet engines make it possible to have fresh fruit everywhere all year round, and to transport medicines where they are needed.

The internet and the t.v. are similar – there is a lot of garbage on both. The improved communications are overall IMHO a plus. Sure, you can watch endless reruns of Gilligan’s Island or whatever, but you can also know a lot more about, say, a presidential candidate than you could before these media existed. The fact that too many of us don’t do so is our own fault. MTV and “reality” shows are mind-numbing. But there is Sesame Street and Masterpiece Theater, too.

It is harder to be ignorant of other places and peoples when you can see them every day.

Very good point on Switzerland. It is helped in its stability by its strong military and its ethnic and cultural homogeneity. Britain certainly in centuries past had its share of violent internal conflicts, but then the U.S. has not been around that long. Britain’s basic ideas of justice and representative government were a major inspiration in the setup of the U.S. government, with some careful tweaking to try to avoid some of the perceived problems.

I’m not knowledgeable about Bolivia. Has it been free of the violent insurrections, revolutions and civil disorder that have plagued many other South American countries? If so, I wonder what has made the difference? Ditto in Africa, which continues to have some very unfortunate situations in some parts and not others. I’m not disputing Mandelstam’s assertions, just asking for information.

I don’t see how ratifying the 1787 Constitution can fairly be characterized as a “coup” or how it “overthrew” the government under the Articles of Confederation. The Articles did contain a provision for their own alteration and, while the 1787 Constitution was technically not ratified as an “alteration” to the Articles as such, there was substantial compliance with the forms for “altering” the Articles. The Confederation Congress convened the Constitutional Convention, which transmitted the proposed new constitution to the states. Every state ultimately ratified the 1787 Constitution, as the Articles required (although the ratification was accomplished by conventions elected for the purpose, rather than by being “confirmed by the legislatures” pursuant to the Articles). And the Confederation Congress organized the first congressional and presidential elections and fixed the date for the commencement of government under the newly ratified Constitution, which amounted at least to its retroactively being “agreed to in a Congress of the United States” as the Articles required. That process hardly fits any reasonable definition of a “coup” or an “overthrow.”

More in the thread Were the Articles of Confederation ever formally dissolved?

brian, for another perspective, take a look at Carol Berkin’s A Brilliant Solution: Inventing the American Constitution. I guess this partly depends on how you define “overthrowing the government,” but when one governing body is completely replaced by an entirely different one, I’d consider it pretty close to that, even though it was done through deliberation and consensus of the states. It was not at all as tidy as most superficial history books would lead us to believe.

Taking the other point of view, that this was not an overthrow of the government, pushes the issue back one decade and makes the original Articles of Confederation remarkable as well. Either way, something about the structure and the people made it possible for the country to re-define the entire structure of its government without a single shot being fired, which I’d say is one of the good things about America.

The unfortunate thing, of course, is that the necessary compromises were not able to resolve the issue of slavery. Many of the “founding brothers” argued vehemently that this would cause problems later on, and we know now that they were right.

MLS, thanks for the recommendation. I just ordered the book from Amazon. I look forward to reading it!

I think your list is pretty good, Calculus. I would only add the following:

Good:

Religious freedom

Excellent entertainment industry

Major proponent of wide range of high tech industries

Citizens’ right to bear arms (much better than countries like Australia and Britain)

Originator of the Chevy small-block V8

Bad:

Political system that is prone to corruption by bankers and big business

Mass media that cares more about entertainment value and ratings than integrity and truth

Judicial system that entertains lawyers who are expert in complicating and prolonging the administration of justice so that they can make more money.

No “fish ‘n chip shops”

Good

Developed antibiotics and much of modern medicine.

Terrific Universities

Supports Basic Research
Bad

Gives a tiny share of GDP to foreign aid, relative to other developed countries

High poverty rates, given its level of development

Does not have universal health care, unlike every other developed country

High Murder rates, relative to other developed countries

Mediocre life-expectancy, compared with other dev. countries

Spends a high share of GDP on health care spending, given its mediocre life-expectancy

I’d be interested in some specifics that support these assertations. I’m not necessarily disputing them, just wondering what the source of the information is.

Another good/bad issue is the tax level. Many Americans consider their tax bill unreasonably high, especially this month when income taxes are due, but I am led to believe that it is puny in comparison to some western European countries.

Good:

Lots of clean water. Nice sanitation.

Wonderful technology.

Some degree of upward mobility possible.

Decent higher educational opportunities.

Wonderful entertainment and art.

Freedom to be persue individuality.
Bad:

Mass media does little to educate.

People are lazy and under-educated. Worse, they know it and don’t care.

We’re stingy and spoiled. We think we’re entitled to everything. We live in a bubble of self-indulgence created and perpuated by capitalism.

We ignore blatant inequalities in our society. Classism and racism are unpleasant realities.

There are too many ways to end up in prison.

This should be listed under bad.

**MLS **
“The internet and the t.v. are similar – there is a lot of garbage on both. The improved communications are overall IMHO a plus. Sure, you can watch endless reruns of Gilligan’s Island or whatever, but you can also know a lot more about, say, a presidential candidate than you could before these media existed. The fact that too many of us don’t do so is our own fault.”

I don’t want to hijack this thread as these issues have been discussed before. Suffice it to say I both agree and disagree. Yes, there is good tv and yes people can choose it, but in the current climate they’re unlikely to even know it exists, or, even if they do, to develop a taste for it. This is --apropros of the present thread–an especially American phenomenon; that is, US tv is more commercialized and less informative than in several other countries. Hence, I would list it among our “bads” with some notable exceptions. (It remains to be seen whether the internet can be tamed in ways that make it too a de facto instrument for commercialization and intellectual conformity; right now that is not the case but I’ve read things about future developments that leave me concerned.)

“It is harder to be ignorant of other places and peoples when you can see them every day.”

Yes, but coverage of international affairs on tv and in print media has dropped dramatically since the 1960s. On the whole, Americans are woefully uninformed about what goes on outside their borders; and know little enough about what goes on inside it. :frowning:

“Very good point on Switzerland. It is helped in its stability by its strong military and its ethnic and cultural homogeneity.”

Actually Switzerland began as relatively diverse: it has three national languages and two religions (Protestantism and Catholicism). Back in the nineteenth century this religious and cultural conflict did cause civil unrest. So when you compare an older country like Switzerland that’s been establishing historical bonds and ironing out differences since pre-modern times to an African nation that got its independence in the 1950s or 1960s, you have to take that into account–not to mention that decolonization left most of these countries with deepened ethnic and religious fissures, and serious economic problems. Switzerland didn’t have to deal with that.

“Britain certainly in centuries past had its share of violent internal conflicts, but then the U.S. has not been around that long.”

Relatively few–especially when compared to France. Britain had a civil war in the seventeenth century to do with religion and attendant politics. The rest of its evolution was fairly peaceful, esp. the “Glorious Revolution” of 1688 (invited transfer of the monarchy from Catholic Stuarts to Protestant Hanoverians in conjunction with shift of most sovereign power to Parliament), and the three reform bills of the nineteenth century (gradually enfranchising the entire adult male population with hardly any bloodshed at all). Mind you, I’m not counting problems related to imperialism, whether in Ireland or farther afield b/c the US had those too. Considering that England’s been around as such since 1066 (even before though in more regional form), its history is quite remarkable for comparatively peaceful evolution, which was (and probably remains) a source of English/British pride.

“Britain’s basic ideas of justice and representative government were a major inspiration in the setup of the U.S. government, with some careful tweaking to try to avoid some of the perceived problems.”

Yes, which is something I often post on myself when some American posters get it into their heads that democracy was “invented” by Americans.

“I’m not knowledgeable about Bolivia. Has it been free of the violent insurrections, revolutions and civil disorder that have plagued many other South American countries?”

I honestly don’t know. It’s independence was important historically because it occurred so early. Thing is that, as with African countries, you have to take economic conditions into account. This is esp. true of Haiti which, having gotten its independence in 1804 is a relatively old “modern” nation. Haiti was remarkable in its time–not only a post-colonial nation, but one in which the majority of citizens were former slaves. But at a time when the slave trade was still legal in Britain, and slavery was institutionalized in the US, Haiti was an anomaly that Western nations weren’t ready to accept. So it was isolated economically and it has never recovered from that damage. I’m not at all an expert on South America, but I can say that generally these nations had to struggle with economic forms of imperialism even after they got rid of direct imperial rule.

Hope this answers some of your questions :slight_smile:

BTW, the stuff that you queried flowbark on–I don’t have cites for you handy–but I will say that these are AFAIK well-established and non-controversial facts.

Since I’m posting in this thread, despite my disinclination towards good vs. bad I’ll add:

Bad:

high levels of socio-economic inequality

ridiculously bad levels of incarceration, esp. for non-violent drug-related offenses

low levels of democratic participation (due to correctable social and political defects)

tied to the latter, too much political and cultural power in the hands of religious radicals with a theocratic agenda that conflicts with foundational principles that have made this country great

too much unregulated corporate power

foreign policy currently moving in a dangerously unilateralist and neo-imperial direction

Good:

increasingly culturally and racially diverse, esp. in big cities

less sexism than in many other countries

amazingly good restaurants :wink:

people who are caring and optimistic at heart, not generally cynical

higher education (esp. post-graduate) still best in world

my home, where I was born, and therefore always close to my heart :wink:

There have been dozens of threads on these issues, so you probably could find all the figures you want by using the search tool. Or else, for the low foreign aid you could check the CIA factbook and do the maths by yourself (foreign aid/GNP) for various countries, search on the WHO site for infos about the mediocre life expectancy (by comparison to other developed nations) and the huge medical expenses. Concerning the high murder rates, check the many threads about the right to bear arms, where regularily some poster or another compares the murder rates in the USA vs Europe.