What are some forms of information that undermine the simple 'oppressor vs oppressed' western narrative

[DemonTree]

@GIGObuster

Of course the propaganda that also included the “we will only prosecute immigrant criminals” was poppycock also, and now the result is that the Hispanics that were deceived are not supporting Trump.

You’re lucky Trump is so incompetent, because IMO it would be pretty easy to do ‘populist right’ in a way that really is popular, even with Latinos and other recent immigrant populations. The fact someone is an immigrant themselves doesn’t necessarily make them sympathise with other immigrants or prospective immigrants, and doesn’t stop them being socially conservative, either.

@Spice_Weasel

I didn’t even know what a Jew was until I had a Jewish college roommate.

How is that possible? Didn’t you learn about the Holocaust at school? Didn’t you hear about other religions on the news and through reading books? I grew up in a rural area that was pretty homogeneous (and the UK as a whole was far less diverse 30 or 40 years ago than today), but we still learned about other cultures and religions.

I don’t think I was taught many specifics about Judaism since Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs are more common in the UK than Jews, but I definitely knew something about it before I was an adult.

And I enjoyed reading old books, so I knew that as recently as the 1920s or 30s, it was common for British people to be prejudiced against southern Europeans and Jews (as well as against non-white people) - using derogatory names, and unquestioningly referring to national/ethnic stereotypes. But the kind of attitudes depicted there were definitely not something I ever saw in real life.

I don’t think it’s the case that no one around me was prejudiced, but you get a different kind of prejudice when people aren’t familiar with other races/ethnic groups. More like seeing the unfamiliar as exotic or a curiosity, rather than the sort of nasty attitudes and entrenched beliefs you’ve described encountering. It’s still uncomfortable to be seen that way, I imagine: as being different from the norm and not ‘one of us’. But it’s not hateful in the way more standard racism is, and it’s much easier to be seen as an individual and accepted once people have got to know you.

@Spice_Weasel

I don’t think he’s ever experienced discrimination for either his actual ethnicity or his presumed one. It did allow him to do work in Jewish populations sort of seamlessly, and when we lived in New Jersey he found all the kosher food to be a boon to his allergies. He worked in an Orthodox Jewish community at one point.

Sounds like looking Jewish has been a benefit to him if anything. That probably wouldn’t be the case if you lived elsewhere in the US, but it’s why sweeping statements about privileges and disadvantages aren’t always helpful. And it does suggest things really have changed in terms of prejudice, even if it’s not completely gone even for these earlier immigrant groups.

@Spice_Weasel

My husband has passed for other ethnicities too; he has that vaguely Eastern European look so when traveling in Spain, Greece etc he was often confused with natives.

There’s a lot of variety in how people look anyway. I’ve worked with colleagues from many different countries, including a Spaniard and Italian who both had blue eyes and were fairer than me.

[Spice_Weasel]

@DemonTree

How is that possible? Didn’t you learn about the Holocaust at school? Didn’t you hear about other religions on the news and through reading books? I grew up in a rural area that was pretty homogeneous (and the UK as a whole was far less diverse 30 or 40 years ago than today), but we still learned about other cultures and religions.

Heh, I should clarify. I learned about the Holocaust in 8th grade, with pictures! I read the Diary of Anne Frank and Night by Elie Wiesel. just didn’t really have a context for understanding Jewish culture because I don’t think I had ever met a Jewish person. I have a vague memory as a child of like one old Jewish lady my grandma knew, but it really wasn’t a meaningful concept to me.

That’s maybe one reason why I have a really hard time wrapping my head around anti-Semitism. I grew up in a context that was very racist toward certain ethnicities but my actual experience was with white people and Black people and not much else. It wasn’t until college that I learned about all the other ways that people can be racist. And I learned that lesson hard when 9/11 happened during the first week of my first semester.

[DemonTree]

@Spice_Weasel

Heh, I should clarify. I learned about the Holocaust in 8th grade, with pictures! I read the Diary of Anne Frank and Night by Elie Wiesel. just didn’t really have a context for understanding Jewish culture because I don’t think I had ever met a Jewish person. I have a vague memory as a child of like one old Jewish lady my grandma knew, but it really wasn’t a meaningful concept to me.

Oh good. I thought US schools all taught about the Holocaust, but you seem to have grown up in a really racist area, so anything is possible.

And as for understanding Jewish culture, I only have online acquaintances. Jews are a small minority in Britain, and a largely invisible one at that. All the more so since religion isn’t a big part of most people’s lives here. No one is asking their neighbours what church they go to, which is something I’ve heard happens in parts of America. And sadly, I suspect being Jewish is something people might not want to draw attention to.

But probably because of this invisibility, I’ve never heard antisemitism expressed in real life, though it has become unpleasantly common on Twitter - along with many other kinds of racism. In Britain, Islamophobia is probably the most common ethnic prejudice, and South Asians are the biggest minority group, especially in the Midlands where I now live. Most of the non-white people I know and have known are Asian.

@Spice_Weasel

That’s maybe one reason why I have a really hard time wrapping my head around anti-Semitism. I grew up in a context that was very racist toward certain ethnicities but my actual experience was with white people and Black people and not much else. It wasn’t until college that I learned about all the other ways that people can be racist. And I learned that lesson hard when 9/11 happened during the first week of my first semester.

Do you understand what motivates any kind of racism (or think you do)?

---

I finally found the article I wanted to refer to before, about how African Americans have some of the characteristics of a national minority rather than being simply an immigrant group, and this has complicated race relations in the US:

Why Are Racial Problems in the United States So Intractable? - American...

Extract:

It is not difficult to see how, with respect to these two models of integration, African Americans fall through the cracks. Unlike immi­grants, their ancestors did not come to America voluntarily. At the same time, they lack certain characteristics of a national group, in part because of geographical dispersion, but also because slaves were subject to intentional disruption of their language and culture, which resulted in African Americans both speaking English as a native lan­guage and becoming overwhelmingly Christian. And so despite the standard political claim that African Americans want “integration” into American society, there is considerable disagreement about the terms of such integration. Polyethnic integration is often rejected as equivalent to institutional “color blindness,” which is insensitive to the particular demands of African Americans (often phrased in terms of a desire to affirm a distinct black identity). Yet because of the impossibility of devolution of powers, primarily because of geographic dispersion, the institutional pluralism that is the major feature of the multinational model of integration is impractical in the African American case.

Because African Americans are in many respects “omni-Ameri­can,” and have been so influential in the development of American culture, there is a tendency to underestimate the degree to which they possess the characteristics of a national group. Ironically, the develop­ment of a parallel society for blacks in America was not a consequence of slavery per se, but began rather in the Reconstruction era, due to the near-total exclusion of former slaves and their descendants from all of the institutions of mainstream American society. The existence of black churches has been widely noted, but less commonly recognized is the development of an entire network of black magazines and newspapers, schools (including colleges), sports leagues, artistic traditions, entertainment venues, businesses, and in some cases towns. Many of these were reproduced with the Great Migration northward, leading to the creation of important African American institutions in cities like Chicago, Detroit, and especially New York. This period also saw the emergence of a distinctive dialect of English, whose status remains an object of intense controversy. Currently referred to as African American Vernacular English (AAVE), it is not merely an accent, since it involves systematic grammatical departures from Standard American English (SAE), as well as a distinctive lexi­con.

Some of these parallel institutions—such as the sports leagues—collapsed with the abolition of formal discrimination, but others per­sisted, in part because they were valued as independent institutions by African Americans, who saw them as providing space for the repro­duction of their own distinctive culture and traditions. As a result, the dynamic of integration is one that has been met with, at very least, profound ambivalence. One can see this in the characterization, and frequent ridicule by African Americans, of those who adopt various mainstream behavior patterns as “acting white.” This is most obvious in the case of English grammar and pronunciation, where SAE is often regarded as pretentious or haughty. More generally, because the behavior of the majority is often characterized as “white,” conformity to majority norms is seen as exhibiting, in many cases, a lack of racial solidarity.

It’s long, and I doubt it provides such a comprehensive explanation as the author claims, but I think it’s getting at something real and significant that distinguishes ADOS from the various immigrant groups in America, and means they can’t necessarily be treated the same way.

[Spice_Weasel]

@DemonTree

Do you understand what motivates any kind of racism (or think you do)?

Kind of. Keeping slaves (or approving of slavery) and claiming Christian identity required enormous amounts of cognitive dissonance and callousness to Black suffering. This engendered a unique sort of pathology with regard to Black people. It wasn’t just slavery; there were several landmark moments in history following the abolition of slavery in which the white leadership made decisions explicitly designed to preserve racial hegemony in the South. One example was the 1933 New Deal, which has been generally regarded as a landmark piece of legislation offering social security benefits and other protections for the poorest of Americans during the Great Depression. Getting that legislation passed was a bitter fight because Democrats (things were kinda flipped then, Democrats were the southern conservatives) insisted that the legislation exclude agricultural and domestic workers, namely Black people, from these benefits. They were so determined to keep Black people from not just prosperity but anything other than completely destitute, and they said as much, openly, on the House Floor.

Why?

Because I think at a certain point you cross some kind of moral event horizon after which you’re never going to be able to face what you’ve done. In order to justify this atrocity we committed, Black people must be inferior. And we must continue to treat them as inferior because if we ever stop treating them as inferior we would have to face the incomprehensible horror of all we have done since even before the inception of our country to abuse, mutilate and oppress an entire people simply for the color of their skin.

Do you know why so many of of the United States’ founding documents are so vague and aspirational? Because even when the Declaration of Independence was written, Americans were bitterly divided on the subject of slavery. The Constitution was often written to be interpreted by southerners one way and northeners another. That’s why we can never agree on how to interpret it. Conflict was baked in.

So that’s what I think about racism toward American Blacks. The people who started this travesty could not look at it, so they taught their kids and their kids’ kids that everything they see around them - Black people with higher rates of poverty, Black people struggling in school, Black people refused home loans and incarcerated at higher rates and shot by police and on and on and on - it’s not because of this pervasive monstrous multi-generational injustice, it’s because this is as good as Black people can possibly do. Because they are inferior. And thus it’s all justified.

And now we can sleep at night.

That’s what I think.

[Spice_Weasel]

I also think that’s why another Civil War has always been a possibility. I suspect the cultural chasm between liberals and conservatives that existed even before the country was founded have guaranteed that we in this country will never have anything but at best a fragile co- existence. But there have always been people here just itching to kill other people. In Michigan we have the militia, a bunch of crazy fuckers with guns who play war and do things like plot to kidnap our governor and fantasize about the coming violence. They’re just waiting for an excuse. And they’ve always been here.

[Kimstu]

@Spice_Weasel

That’s what I think.

I think you’re right.

[DemonTree]

I’m surprised. I didn’t know you saw America as so exceptional (in a bad way). The conditions you describe did not exist in Europe - do you think Europeans are less racist than Americans, then?

It does explain this comment:

@Spice_Weasel

Those people never went away, they raised their children to think like them, and young people find their influencers’ arguments incredibly persuasive.

If racism is a reaction to the sins of the past, then it must be passed on to children by their parents or wider society, and merely have been hidden, rather than genuinely be increasing now.

@Spice_Weasel

Because I think at a certain point you cross some kind of moral event horizon after which you’re never going to be able to face what you’ve done. In order to justify this atrocity we committed, Black people must be inferior. And we must continue to treat them as inferior because if we ever stop treating them as inferior we would have to face the incomprehensible horror of all we have done since even before the inception of our country to abuse, mutilate and oppress an entire people simply for the color of their skin.

Here I suspect you may be assuming other people are more similar to you then they really are. My impression is that most modern conservatives feel little responsibility for things their country or ancestors did in the past. There’s no need to justify ill treatment and oppression if you do not consider yourself responsible for it. Especially, in fact, with so many white Americans having a recent immigrant background, they can say to themselves “it wasn’t my ancestors. I haven’t personally harmed anyone, and I’m not to blame”

And based on other things you’ve said, you feel the horror more acutely than most people, too, which makes it harder to deal with.

I don’t know. I guess some people may feel like this, but do you really need a special explanation for anti-black racism when ethnic tensions are so ubiquitous around the world?

Just look at what happened in Europe last century, and the rise of far-right parties again today. Trump is unique in some ways, but he’s also part of a wider movement towards right-wing populism.

[Zoobi]

You seem to think American racism is some ancient long gone thing.

[DemonTree]

Really? That’s how you interpret me saying racism is increasing and ethnic tensions are ubiquitous?

[Spice_Weasel]

@DemonTree

do you think Europeans are less racist than Americans, then?

I dunno, I’m not European and I have no idea about European history and how its racism works. I am not claiming exceptionality except insofar as every country, situation and dynamic is unique. I just know a reasonable amount about racist institutions in my own country, and I know the people I grew up around. I don’t know how much I am or am not like most people, but I suspect I am not like most. I am a sensitive person, for whatever reason.

@DemonTree

If racism is a reaction to the sins of the past, then it must be passed on to children by their parents or wider society, and merely have been hidden, rather than genuinely be increasing now.

Yes, that would be my position. I’ve seen the full spectrum of racists, from ugly and blunt racists who make it a central part of their identity to nice little old grandmothers who would never dare say the n-word but put her kids in private school so they wouldn’t be around black kids. And then there are the racists who hold prejudiced views but really don’t give them much thought one way or another, and who might have a Black friend or two (which helps them reassure themselves they aren’t really racist.) I think at various times throughout history there have been social pressures to keep racism under wraps, only something you really talk about with your closest friends, maybe after you’ve been drinking too much. So it looked like genuine improvement, and in some respects, it was – in the 90s, blatant racism was pretty frowned upon, at least in the respectable middle class, so people mostly had to keep their mouths shut about whatever lingering beliefs they had, and I think a lot of antiracists took that to mean beliefs were changing.

My grandparents are the polite sort of racists. I never heard my grandfather say a single racist thing in my life. But I once dated a black man and brought him home (I was staying with them at the time) and my grandfather was so furious he couldn’t even be in the same room with me. I had violated some unwritten rule of racial segregation in his mind.

Maybe things were starting to improve. But in the very least it’s clear there were little nuggets of racism that couldn’t be extracted from people, and all they needed was to be nurtured into the kind of full-throated white supremacy that is becoming the norm in public discourse. It didn’t come out of nowhere. It’s always been here. It may have manifested differently, it may have been closeted, but it’s always been here.

@DemonTree

My impression is that most modern conservatives feel little responsibility for things their country or ancestors did in the past.

If that were all this was about, I’m not sure there would be an issue. The problem is that they feel little responsibility for things their communities are doing right now. They feel little remorse for their own bigoted views. The part where they deny the reality of slavery and its impact on the US is only within the context of them allowing racist institutions to thrive in good ol’ 2025. The fact that the past is not their fault is their excuse for not doing anything about the present.

It seems to me they would only make that argument unless they knew, deep down, the reason for the present is the past.

[Wesley_Clark]

@Dr.Strangelove

It’s the natural result of postmodernist influence. When you reject notions of good/bad, right/wrong, true/false, lawful/illegal, and so on, there’s not much left but oppressor/oppressed (incidentally, I think MAGA is probably also a postmodernist movement, but that’s a different story).

I don’t know. I feel like MAGA is an attempt to hang onto power and privilege that comes from whiteness, heteronormativity, patriarchy, christianity and westernism in a world (and a country) that is rapidly changing to reduce the status and prestige that comes from being white, male, western, christian, etc. Its an attempt to recapture the concrete social hierarchies that existed before the civil rights movements in the 1960s.

My issue with the ‘oppressor/oppressed’ narrative is that there is a loss of respect for general principles like the universal declaration of human rights in favor of creating narratives that portray evil as something that is associated with people in power, and people not in power being good.

The issue is humans can be very shitty, and when you give human beings power they become shittier. If Africa had conquered the world they would’ve been just as shitty as any other group that had done so. I think this is part of what motivates MAGA, an unconscious terror that once they are the minority group, that they will start being treated the same way that they treat minorities.

[DemonTree]

@Wesley_Clark

My issue with the ‘oppressor/oppressed’ narrative is that there is a loss of respect for general principles like the universal declaration of human rights in favor of creating narratives that portray evil as something that is associated with people in power, and people not in power being good.

Yes. Most revolutions in history have led to bloodshed, first of those formerly in power, and then often factions of the revolutionaries against each other. Being oppressed is not morally improving; it more often makes people want revenge than it leads to greater sympathy with the suffering of others.

@Wesley_Clark

The issue is humans can be very shitty, and when you give human beings power they become shittier. If Africa had conquered the world they would’ve been just as shitty as any other group that had done so. I think this is part of what motivates MAGA, an unconscious terror that once they are the minority group, that they will start being treated the same way that they treat minorities.

I’m not sure how unconscious this is. The average MAGA supporter believes they are already being denigrated and discriminated against by ‘coastal elites’. Naturally they expect this to get much worse as their share of the population/electorate shrinks, and it’s one reason they are so opposed to immigration. Nor is it an entirely unreasonable fear. As you said, give any group power and they are likely to act the same way. We can easily see the truth of this by looking at countries around the world and finding all kinds of prejudices.

But the other aspect of this, and another issue with the oppressor-oppressed narrative, is that many of the disadvantages of being in a minority are a direct result of that state, rather than being a result of intentional discrimination by the majority. To take a simple example, very short and very tall people have trouble finding clothes that fit, not because clothes manufacturers are prejudiced against them, but because it makes sense economically to size their products to fit average people.

From the article I linked earlier:

One way to understand the dilemmas of American race relations is in terms of a problem common to all societies in achieving social integration. Human cultures are characterized by a very dense body of norms, which people rely upon for guidance on how to carry out virtually every aspect of social, and indeed often personal, life. Social integration is achieved when most people share the same set of norms; in the sense that they largely conform to them, they expect others to conform to them, and these expectations are mostly fulfilled.

It is because of these structural features of social interaction that intercultural contact, communication, and interaction has always been fraught with difficulty. Particularly in the political and legal sphere, there is a great deal to be said for having a uniform system of rules, which imposes the same demands on everyone and generates a shared set of expectations. The modern state, with its expansive administrative system and economic reach, relies heavily upon standardization for a great many of its organizational achievements. As Ernest Gellner observed, this creates the need for an official language for the conduct of public affairs, as well as a uniform set of social expectations. The rise of modern nation-states has generated enormous pressure toward linguistic and institutional homogeneity. Elements of the capitalist economy also push toward uniformity and shared norms. Major cor­porations, for example, go to great lengths to standardize the “customer experience,” so that clients always know what to expect when interacting with the firm. Thus both bureaucratic and commercial culture tend to push in the direction of, and to reward, uniformity of social behavior.

It’s an advantage for a society to have a uniform set of rules and norms; different cultures and different religions have different norms - and in a democracy, those norms are going to be set by the majority group. Immigrants accept that to some extent they are going to have to live by someone else’s norms, and expect benefits from moving that outweigh this cost. Longstanding residents do not.

It doesn’t seem crazy or evil to me to want to remain a majority in your own country, when that means institutions will mostly reflect your language, culture and values, and people who share those things with you largely control its direction. This happens naturally in a democracy, and the most a minority can get is some kind of compromise - or, as the article notes, if there are national minorities living in specific geographical areas, power can be devolved to them so that they can have those same benefits in a subnational state.

This isn’t (necessarily) about desiring to impose rules on other people. It’s a normal feature of nation states, and there are plenty of other countries in the world where people of other cultures get to build institutions and live according to their own culture and values (and to the extent that they are unable to, that’s a bad thing, right?)

[DemonTree]

@Spice_Weasel

I dunno, I’m not European and I have no idea about European history and how its racism works. I am not claiming exceptionality except insofar as every country, situation and dynamic is unique. I just know a reasonable amount about racist institutions in my own country, and I know the people I grew up around.

FWIW, I think Americans really are more racist against black people specifically, and the history you gave is the explanation.

But in general, racism is one expression of tribalism, and tribalism is a deeply embedded part of human nature - one which we will probably never be rid of. That’s why I said racism against the various European nationalities disappeared (perhaps more accurately, diminished) as the differences between them became less salient. Who you consider part of your tribe is not fixed, and can change over time, and this is the only genuine solution. Anything else you do is at best going to mitigate the problem.

(This is also a major reason I worried about the social justice movement moving away from ‘colour blindness’ as an ideal and encouraging people to take race into account: I agree the former approach is inadequate, but raising the salience of race will IMO almost inevitably increase racism.)

@Spice_Weasel

I think at various times throughout history there have been social pressures to keep racism under wraps, only something you really talk about with your closest friends, maybe after you’ve been drinking too much. So it looked like genuine improvement, and in some respects, it was – in the 90s, blatant racism was pretty frowned upon, at least in the respectable middle class, so people mostly had to keep their mouths shut about whatever lingering beliefs they had, and I think a lot of antiracists took that to mean beliefs were changing.

You knew, everyone must know, that stopping people from talking about something will not change their beliefs. Preventing direct voicing of racism makes life more pleasant for ethnic minorities, and I assumed there was a theory of change here that blocking the expression of racism, and making it low status, would reduce its spread to others, especially to young people. I, too, assumed this had been fairly successful.

@Spice_Weasel

My grandparents are the polite sort of racists. I never heard my grandfather say a single racist thing in my life. But I once dated a black man and brought him home (I was staying with them at the time) and my grandfather was so furious he couldn’t even be in the same room with me. I had violated some unwritten rule of racial segregation in his mind.

My family did not react like that. You’ve been very unlucky in your family and childhood, and I’m glad you’re better off now. But that was your grandparents, a much earlier generation. I don’t think you have any siblings, but do you have cousins? Are people in your generation less racist than those in your grandparent’s generation? If so, then things really were improving.

@Spice_Weasel

Maybe things were starting to improve. But in the very least it’s clear there were little nuggets of racism that couldn’t be extracted from people, and all they needed was to be nurtured into the kind of full-throated white supremacy that is becoming the norm in public discourse. It didn’t come out of nowhere. It’s always been here. It may have manifested differently, it may have been closeted, but it’s always been here.

Because it’s human nature. There are no people on earth who aren’t tribal in some way. If they aren’t hating one group of people, they will for sure find another. It doesn’t have to be based on race, but it’s going to be something.

@Spice_Weasel

If that were all this was about, I’m not sure there would be an issue. The problem is that they feel little responsibility for things their communities are doing right now.

What are their communities doing right now?

---

Also, I intended to ask about this but forgot:

@Spice_Weasel

Getting that legislation passed was a bitter fight because Democrats (things were kinda flipped then, Democrats were the southern conservatives) insisted that the legislation exclude agricultural and domestic workers, namely Black people, from these benefits. They were so determined to keep Black people from not just prosperity but anything other than completely destitute, and they said as much, openly, on the House Floor.

I’m not surprised they would do this, but I am surprised a politician would say such a thing openly. Where can I read about it?

[Spice_Weasel]

That’s a great question and I will try to get your answer. I read about it in graduate school, with a direct quote from a sitting congressman, but I don’t remember the exact wording, but it was something about preserving the racial order of the South. I’m guessing it was in a text book written by John Hope Franklin. I have some interest in this subject because in graduate school it was a required two-year seminar on American racism with a focus on the Black/white binary. My instructor was a lawyer and legal scholar who was part of the Civil Rights movement. Interesting guy. He was a conservative, married to a white woman. I did have some good learning opportunities there.

@DemonTree

My family did not react like that. You’ve been very unlucky in your family and childhood, and I’m glad you’re better off now. But that was your grandparents, a much earlier generation. I don’t think you have any siblings, but do you have cousins? Are people in your generation less racist than those in your grandparent’s generation?

I have some cousins, but they are much younger and I don’t know them well. I don’t know if they are racist, but for the children of the Aunt married to a Black trans person, probably not (you think Grandpa was mad at me…) My grandfather’s late son was a bit of a reactionary. That guy was an asshole but he was not a racist. He was really into Bob Marley and the Black liberation movement. My Aunt, the one who practically raised me, explicitly anti-racist.

And by some miracle, my biological parents were not racist. Either of them. And my biological father was exactly the kind of guy who would be stereotyped as racist. White, working class, barely graduated high school, hard drinker, staunch Republican, extremely racist family - not racist. It’s so easy for people in his demographic to turn to belittling people of color in order to feel better about themselves. I’m not sure why he was different.

If you look at studies, Gen X people are about the most egalitarian as it got. They seemed better than their parents on these issues. Then there was the Millennial backlash (I’m an older Millennial.) I’m not sure about Gen Z.

@DemonTree

Because it’s human nature. There are no people on earth who aren’t tribal in some way. If they aren’t hating one group of people, they will for sure find another. It doesn’t have to be based on race, but it’s going to be something.

I agree, of course.

[Spice_Weasel]

This was the book. We spent two semesters just on the history of racism, and then another two semesters doing some kind of racial justice project in our internship agencies, and talking about it. It was a really cool experience. I wish I could have done a similar deep dive on the history of women.

From Slavery to Freedom: A History of... book by John Hope Franklin

I’m sure the quote is on the Internet somewhere, though. I’ll keep looking.

[DemonTree]

I scanned the New Deal chapter, but I didn’t find it yet. And I should have been in bed ages ago.

[Wesley_Clark]

@DemonTree

It’s an advantage for a society to have a uniform set of rules and norms; different cultures and different religions have different norms - and in a democracy, those norms are going to be set by the majority group. Immigrants accept that to some extent they are going to have to live by someone else’s norms, and expect benefits from moving that outweigh this cost. Longstanding residents do not.

It doesn’t seem crazy or evil to me to want to remain a majority in your own country, when that means institutions will mostly reflect your language, culture and values, and people who share those things with you largely control its direction. This happens naturally in a democracy, and the most a minority can get is some kind of compromise - or, as the article notes, if there are national minorities living in specific geographical areas, power can be devolved to them so that they can have those same benefits in a subnational state.

This isn’t (necessarily) about desiring to impose rules on other people. It’s a normal feature of nation states, and there are plenty of other countries in the world where people of other cultures get to build institutions and live according to their own culture and values (and to the extent that they are unable to, that’s a bad thing, right?)

Look at Israel and Palestine if you want an example of what happens when two groups in close proximity have totally different moral frameworks. It leads to mass hatred and violence. In some areas they just break off into different countries and avoid each other, but in the Israel/Palestine issue that isn’t an option either as both sides want the same land.

However another aspect of democracy is protection of minority groups. black people are a minority group. LGBT are a minority group. Protections are built into democracy to protect minority groups.

Also white/black relations in the US are different than other forms of tribalism. In the US, the ruling class have intentionally tried to stoke and create hostility by whites against blacks. This was done so that whites would never join with blacks in a rebellion against the ruling class (like they did in bacon’s rebellion). Also it was to justify the dehumanization of slavery. It also helps keep the working class distracted from economic issues. So while tribalism is a part of human nature, most tribes manage to integrate more or less while black people in the US haven’t. A century ago the Irish, French, Polish, Chinese, Japanese, etc faced a ton of prejudice. They are pretty well integrated now. LGBT have made major strides in integration in the last few decades, but anti-black prejudice is still heavily built into society since it has been intentionally built and stoked by the ruling class to keep the working class divided along racial lines so they wouldn’t unite behind economic lines.

The issue is that regarding groups like MAGA their values are basically their privilege that comes from being the ruling class and the default demographic. They do not want to share power with the other citizens in the country. And now that demographics are pushing them to be forced to share power, they are moving more and more into authoritarianism. This isn’t like the issues facing Europe where widespread immigration from the middle east and Africa of people who don’t share the values of Europe regarding women’s rights, Jewish rights, gay rights, secularism, etc are growing and causing issues. People there are defending their values like protection of minority groups. Groups like MAGA are trying to protect their desire to have status and privilege above and beyond the minority groups.

[Wesley_Clark]

@DemonTree

I’m not surprised they would do this, but I am surprised a politician would say such a thing openly. Where can I read about it?

Its not just social security either. Social security was designed to exclude black people by excluding agricultural workers and domestic workers (which made up about 2/3 of black jobs in the south). I believe in the 1950s, social security benefits were given to these jobs.

But its also why we don’t have universal health care. FDR and Truman wanted universal health care, but there was resistance from southern whites. Southern whites felt that it would lead to subsidized health care for black people, integrated hospitals, and eventually an end to segregation in general. FDR couldn’t get the votes, so eventually a compromise was reached to offer public health insurance to people who were not profitable to insurance companies. The elderly (who got medicare) and the poor and disabled (who got medicaid). If it weren’t for anti-black racism, we would’ve had universal health care in the 1940s.

Plus universal public health care probably would’ve seen health care costs grow at slower rates. That would’ve saved endless tens of trillions of dollars in health care spending over the decades. We spend about 18% of GDP on health care, while most other rich nations spend closer to 12%.

If you ever get confused about the role of anti-black racism in politics, its not republican or democrat. Its southern whites. Whatever party southern whites join will be the party that is racist, anti-democracy, authoritarian, etc. When southern whites were democrats, the democratic party was these things. Now that southern whites are republican, the republican party is these things.

[DemonTree]

@Spice_Weasel

I have some interest in this subject because in graduate school it was a required two-year seminar on American racism with a focus on the Black/white binary. My instructor was a lawyer and legal scholar who was part of the Civil Rights movement. Interesting guy. He was a conservative, married to a white woman. I did have some good learning opportunities there.

That does sound interesting. I didn’t do a graduate degree (and though I would have liked to at the time, my bank balance thanks me), but I kind of wish I’d had the chance to study more subjects in my undergraduate degree, like students do in the US. You can learn a lot on the internet, but you don’t get the real life interaction with an instructor and other students.

@Spice_Weasel

I don’t know if they are racist, but for the children of the Aunt married to a Black trans person, probably not (you think Grandpa was mad at me…)

Lmao. It does sound like there’s less racism in the younger generations, though.

@Spice_Weasel

If you look at studies, Gen X people are about the most egalitarian as it got. They seemed better than their parents on these issues. Then there was the Millennial backlash (I’m an older Millennial.) I’m not sure about Gen Z.

I thought the backlash was Gen Z. I don’t see it in people my age (I like ‘Xennial’ as the descriptor), but maybe it’s also younger Millennials?

It’s an extremely stupid reason, and I might be totally off base here, but my impression is that some of the backlash among the young is the result of establishment adoption of social justice ideas. Young people want to be radical and rebel against older authority figures. Those can be religious authorities, but for newer and less religious generations, they might be social justice campaigners, who unfortunately can have the same humourless and preachy vibe.

@Spice_Weasel

@DemonTree

Because it’s human nature. There are no people on earth who aren’t tribal in some way. If they aren’t hating one group of people, they will for sure find another. It doesn’t have to be based on race, but it’s going to be something.

I agree, of course.

Which tribe do you hate?

[Spice_Weasel]

I dunno about hate, but the tribe I feel most alienated from and infuriated by are Trump voters, and it probably won’t surprise you that I have a hard time with rich people. Not every rich person I know is without redeeming qualities, and some I love very dearly, but I’m inherently suspicious of people with lavish lifestyles.