Are there any real dangers to me in the police being able to get my phone records from, say, AT&T? If I have not done anything illegal, would I still have reason to fear their getting a list of who I called or who called me? I’m not talking about conspiracy type notions of the government spying and eventually taking something over. I’m also not talking about general notions of “you have a right to privacy…” What is there to be feared or concerned about?
I don’t understand why you’d discount any concerns of privacy rights or overreaching government powers. I suppose as long as I discount those, the government may as well follow me around 24/7 with a video camera – I’m not doing anything illegal, right?
I suppose an argument could be made for the police acting upon “clues” which don’t add up, leading to harassment. My phone calls to Pakistan and to ACME Fertilizer Emporium can be completely innocent but open records of those calls could lead to police action despite a lack of other evidence. In regular circumstances, the police, FBI, whoever would have evidence leading to a warrant for those records before they see the call logs.
But, really, I go by the policy of “I don’t have to defend my right to privacy, you need to defend why you’re intruding on my privacy.”
Well if you never call anyone who has or will ever commit a crime you are probably safe, and if no such person ever calls you, and if you are never the subject of any kind of investigation.
One of the first things that is routinely done while investigating people that are arrested is to subpeona their phone records, both land and cell lines. My son bought a motorcycle from some guys and later their house was raiding for drugs. A friend of mine who is on the narcotics task force pulled me aside at a picnic and informed me that my son’s phone number was on the records and that I might want to ‘have a talk with him’. They had identified everyone who either made or received a call and while they couldn’t be charged with anything, they all became suspect in the eyes of the task force. The assumption being that everyone on the suspects phone records was involved in drugs. Cops are pretty straightforward in assuming everyone is guilty and let the courts decide if not. And I am personal friends with 3 cops.
Having your phone records in the hands of the police is equivalent to being interviewed by them. It is fairly likely that something could incriminate you in some way.
Interesting lecture on talking to the police if you haven’t seen it you should.
Sure, did the cops log your calls to an atheist support group for use against you when you run for city council? How about that time Students for a Democratic Society mistakenly put you on their Robocall que? That could be used against you in a variety of ways.
Just because you happen to be innocent doesn’t mean that the cops necessarily are.
One incredibly important thing to keep in mind is that “the law” isn’t an abstract entity but a group of human beings. Not all of them are ethical, even if they are in law enforcement. Letting a whole category of people access to others private information with little to no oversight is just asking for mega-boat loads of trouble.
E.g., you are going thru a divorce, your soon-to-be ex has a brother-in-law on the force. He gets your records and the next thing you know someone is harassing everyone you called lately trying to scare them into giving up information (and a lot of people will not only give it up, but even embellish things).
Never think of privacy and rights in terms of organizations. Think in terms of very fallible people.
Once the government explains why we can’t have any piece of information they have it might make sense to start talking about us giving our information to them. I mean, if the government hasn’t done anything wrong, why would they not allow me to walk in and see any records they have any time I want? Really CIA, if you haven’t done anything wrong you have nothing to fear from us.
To answer the OP’s question, one harm is that the police (or whatever government entity you are talking about) will waste valuable resources, our resources, investigating someone like you who never does anything wrong. It is not worthwhile to watch all the people all the time just in case they happen to do something wrong. It’s not even worth paying someone to pour over all the phone records of the county looking for trouble. And it certainly isn’t fair for the police to pick and choose who to look into without some kind of oversight.
Ok, I give. This board has made a significant shift to the right. So far, five responses, five cautions about how dangerous it is, they might be out to get you, the cops/government can’t be trusted. I was looking to see if there was an actualy, and practical reason, and so far, I don’t see one. I do take it that if I were involved in some questionable activities, or my friends were, that police might use such records to delve into the situation. That’s their job, for my money. The level of paranoia in this country is astonishing. I hope later generations can live in a less insecure world. Mods, you can erase my OP if you want.
CC, are you ok with allowing the police to enter your house at any time, for no reason? How about stopping you when you are driving, just because they felt like it?
The short answer is, the default status should be that my business/information is private and off limits, unless someone can prove that they have a need and a right to access it. Just as my tax filings, bank statements and a record of my credit card use should be my private business, so should my phone records.
Hence our distrust for the pigs?
I see your words, but they make no sense. Lefties are not so stupid as to believe that the policeman is their friend either.
How did this thread get into discussing Sarah Palins’ activity as Governor of Alaska?
One thing that is usually left out of these debates is how accessible these records are to ordinary employees. So what if the cops don’t have access, the employees at the phone company are apt to be just as corrupt as the cops. Probably more, as they are often low paid and have not “moral” status to the job.
If you distrust the cops, there is absolutely no less reason to distrust the employees of the phone company.
I give up too. How in the world do concerns about the privacy of your personal information translate into an idealogical shift to the right? Isn’t the right usually in favor of increased police powers? Wasn’t illegal wiretaps and the government spying on it’s own citizens in the name of the ‘war on terror’ a significant issue for the left during the Bush administration? Isn’t it still? It is with me.
I can’t see how privacy concerns can be catagorized as a left/right issue. You make no sense. :dubious:
They can. The police just need to convince a judge (a theoretically impartial third party) to give them a warrant. And, ta-da, the police can continue to do their jobs.
It’s all about checks and balances. Opposing tension within the system keeps things rational. And it ain’t a left/right issue. I consider myself to be pretty liberal, much more so than the Democratic party is on most issues. And I value civil liberties both for myself and for how they contribute to a better society – does that make me conservative?
If a clerk at the phone company discovers that you have called his ex-wife four times last week he might be able to make some trouble for you if he wants … but he will not be able to stop you with lights and sirens blazing while you are on the parking lot at your place of work … nor will he be able to handcuff you and take you to jail on a made up charge that he knows will not stick, or beat you senseless or shoot you dead while you are attempting to evade arrest … and do it all under color of law.
Police have far more power than phone company clerks. Not all of them handle that power well. In your perfect world I guess police officers would never misuse their authority but in the world in which most of us live it is a fact of life that it does happen, even to non-paranoid people.
RE: The phone calls to your wife; we were arranging for me to do my clown act at your son’s birthday party.
In the abstract, one concern is that police agencies will do “telecom profiling” by analyzing calling patterns and trying to determine which patterns are likely to be related to crime. This would be done without having any suspicion of a crime being committed in the first place. Worst-case scenario is that innocent people could be put under surveillance or harassed based solely on how they use the phone.
Even-worse-case scenario is abuse by officials, as mentioned.
These two scenarios are why we have the Fourth Amendment.
My post is one of the five you are counting here? I don’t get it.
A. I am extremely progressive. Hardly a conservative. Historically, conservatives are pro-police powers.
B. I specifically did give a practical example of abuse.
C. I am not insecure. I am a realist. I don’t think the police are “out to get me” or anything like that. But people do bad things all the time, even the police. To think that they won’t is the opposite condition, a Polyanna-type belief system.
They have absolutely no need whatsoever to obtain someone’s private information without a warrant. If they think there’s something going on, let them go in front of a judge and present their evidence. If they can’t convince a judge to give them a warrant, then they should work on another crime. It’s not like they have hours to kill with no other crimes to investigate.
Yes, rather than listening to my boring phone convos, they can look for the guy who stole the rock saw out of my garage last year.
What were you expecting? You ask, “Are there any real dangers to me in the police being able to get my phone records…?” There are only two possible answers: The answers you got, which answer your question, or “Nothing,” which is a head-in-the-sand non-answer.
It’s like asking, “What are the dangers of skydiving?” and then when people say, “Death is a potential danger,” you tell them to quit trying to be your whining nanny.
I squinted up at the lead detective on my case, and sneered despite a bloodied lip, “Hey, Kojak, how’s bout lettin me go and lookin for Squink’s rock saw?”
He pulled the toothpick out of his mouth and twirled it. “Rock saw?”
“Rock saw.”
He stared at a spot high on the wall for a beat. “Okay, boys. Looks like we’re done here.”
That didn’t go down too well with the rhino in a uniform: “But, we can break him! Just lemme at the punk!” He advanced with balled fists, but Lt. Savalas straight-armed him in the chest. Steely stares interlocked.
“You DID hear me, didn’t you, Sergeant?” “Yeah, I heard ya. You want to let this perp walk while we go lookin for a… rock… saw.” The insignificance of the tool dripped from his quivering lower lip.
The detective hissed into the cop’s face, “The minute I can’t care about an ordinary citizen and his ordinary rock saw is the day I toss my badge on the old man’s desk, and maybe the day after that he’ll give it to you. And you can deal with all the headaches that come with it. But until that day you need to listen to me. And if I say ‘rock saw’, you’d better be trying to come up with a rock saw instead of reasons not to look for it.”
He backed off and turned to face the other blue uniforms, “Now uncuff him and toss him a towel. He’s a mess. And get Squinkie’s ex on the phone. I want her, her mother and the pool boy available for questioning… they might just be taking a little road trip with us, and you know what? We are not coming back without a rock saw.”
There have been some serious problems when officers have been caught using DMV records to figure out where celebrities live, what other cars they own, things like that. I personally know a cop who runs down everyone he can figure out a starting point on.
I generally have an enormous amount of respect for cops and i personally have nothing to hide. But I want information limited as much as possible before things like warrants and subpoenas and probable cause come into play. Not because all cops are bad and I have stuff to hide, but because SOME will abuse it and however innocent I am, I do not want my information out there. I don’t need my crazy stalker to talk to a cop friend and find out who I call for take out or how often I call my family.
This information is available, just get a warrant. If that process is too slow, then let’s figure out how to make it better. (Which is why I hate all the warrantless crap in the PATRIOT act. In emergencies you can always act, but in non-emergencies, if you can’t get a warrant, you probably shouldn’t be doing what you’re doing)