What are the benefits(if any) of privatizing the prison system?

[Czarcasm]

I ask this because of this story from The News York Times concern the problems in the private prison system in general, and East Mississippi Correctional Facility in particular. Lest you think that this story might be biased, one of the sources it uses is the Review of the Federal Bureau of
Prisons’ Monitoring of Contract Prisons, which said

We found that in a majority of the categories we examined, contract prisons incurred more safety and security incidents per capita than comparable BOP institutions. We analyzed data from the 14 contract prisons that were operational during the period of our review and from a select group of 14 BOP institutions with comparable inmate populations to evaluate how the contract prisons performed relative to the selected BOP institutions. Our analysis included data from FYs 2011 through 2014 in eight key categories: (1) contraband, (2) reports of incidents, (3) lockdowns, (4) inmate discipline, (5) telephone monitoring, (6) selected grievances, (7) urinalysis drug testing, and (8) sexual misconduct.3 With the exception of fewer incidents of positive drug tests and sexual misconduct, the contract prisons had more incidents per capita than the BOP institutions in all of the other categories of data we examined. For example, the contract prisons confiscated eight times as many contraband cell phones annually on average as the BOP institutions. Contract prisons also had higher rates of assaults, both by inmates on other inmates and by inmates on staff.

In the Times article they talk about extremely understaffed,under-trained and underpaid guards, and

At East Mississippi, the prison designated by the state to hold mentally ill inmates, there was a glaring lack of oversight of inmate care, according to testimony. Four out of five inmates in the prison receive psychiatric medication, but the facility has not had a psychiatrist since November.

The state prison mental health director is not a medical doctor, but a marriage and family therapist. And Gloria Perry, who became the prison system’s chief medical officer in 2008, revealed that she had never been to the East Mississippi prison.

Pelicia E. Hall, the commissioner of the state prison system, testified that she may have been unaware of many problems at the facility because she did not read weekly performance reports from the state’s own monitor.

This is inexcusable, and it is going to get worse:

A 2016 Justice Department report found that they were more violent than government-run institutions for inmates and guards alike, and the Obama administration sought to phase out their use on the federal level. Early last year, President Trump’s attorney general, Jeff Sessions, reversed the ban.

[Bryan_Ekers]

I take it as clear evidence that government CAN do some things better than the private sector ever will.

[Buck_Godot]

The main advantage I see to privatizing prisons is that wealthy friends and donors of law makers get a chance to make a lot of money at the expense of a group of vulnerable people that are extremely unpopular with the public. Or at least that seems to be the main motivation behind them.

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

@Bryan_Ekers

I take it as clear evidence that government CAN do some things better than the private sector ever will.

I’ve seen this firsthand, back in the early part of this century when my state experimented with private healthcare service in just a handful of state prisons. Only to have the private corporation pack up and walk out because they weren’t making enough money. We state-employed Corrections physicians had to step in and pick up the pieces. It wasn’t pretty. It was expected by the for-profit corporations that they’d make their profits by denying services. Even needed ones. :mad:

[puddleglum]

The benefits are the the employees are not government workers. Government workers are hard to fire, and expensive. This allows for prisons to be run cheaper and money to be spent elsewhere such as schools and infrastructure.

[Czarcasm]

@puddleglum

The benefits are the the employees are not government workers. Government workers are hard to fire, and expensive. This allows for prisons to be run cheaper and money to be spent elsewhere such as schools and infrastructure.

Did you read the article I linked to? If so, what did you think about it?

[andros]

@puddleglum

The benefits are the the employees are not government workers. Government workers are hard to fire, and expensive. This allows for prisons to be run cheaper and money to be spent elsewhere such as schools and infrastructure.

What percentage of prison costs is payroll?
.

[Czarcasm]

@puddleglum

The benefits are the the employees are not government workers. Government workers are hard to fire, and expensive. This allows for prisons to be run cheaper and money to be spent elsewhere such as schools and infrastructure.

Do you have cites that show that money supposedly saved in private prisons goes to schools instead, because I thought it went to getting even more people locked up to justify the cost.

[Slash1972]

Benefits to the government:

1. Allow costs to move from administrative to operations/maintenance. Looks like you are cutting government bloat
2. Plausible deniability - “Sorry, I didn’t know what was going on”
3. Contracts to friends
4. Ability to put “Managed multi-billion dollar contract” on resumes

Benefits to the Company

1. Able to do the bare minimum based on SOW
2. Collect as much money as possible while paying employees less
3. Remove things from prisoners to “save money”. Things that aren’t required by the contract
4. Little to no oversight by government officials
5. CORs that have no idea what is being done, but just sign off on performance reports

Benefits to the prisoners:

1. Little to none.

Benefits to society:

1. More people being locked up.

[Crotalus]

Don’t forget that most state-employed prison personnel are in unions. The same people who love privatizing government functions also despise unions.

[puddleglum]

@andros

What percentage of prison costs is payroll?
.

68%.

[puddleglum]

@Czarcasm

Did you read the article I linked to? If so, what did you think about it?

Appalling, both in the description of the prison and the sloppiness of the argumentation.
The technique of highlighting an awful example of something and then saying that certain people want more of that is specious reasoning. Some teachers are child molesters and some politicians want to hire more teachers, that does not mean that the politicians want children molested or are indifferent to it.
The great thing about private prisons is that this prison can be closed and/or the contractor changed. In a government facility that would be impossible. The problem is that if some people get what they want and all the private prisons are closed in Mississippi then the prisoners will go back to the care of the public system who care so little about them that the head of prisons did not get around to reading the weekly reports. If state officials care so little about prisoners that they can not right decent contracts or monitor private prisons then why should we expect those same state officials to do a better job or running the state prison system?

[Czarcasm]

@puddleglum

The great thing about private prisons is that this prison can be closed and/or the contractor changed.

For example…?
Please show an example of this happening.

[Little_Nemo]

@Buck_Godot

The main advantage I see to privatizing prisons is that wealthy friends and donors of law makers get a chance to make a lot of money at the expense of a group of vulnerable people that are extremely unpopular with the public. Or at least that seems to be the main motivation behind them.

That was the theory. But the private companies that got into the business found there wasn’t that much money there to be made. Despite libertarian gospel, sometimes the government really is doing a good job. The private companies found there weren’t any places where they could cut significant expenses. And without those cuts in expenses, the companies couldn’t underbid government prisons and make a profit.

[andros]

@puddleglum

68%.

Interesting. Even the private prison lobby says it’s less than 50%. But don’t worry, not providing sources for your claims only bolsters your argument.

[Little_Nemo]

@puddleglum

The great thing about private prisons is that this prison can be closed and/or the contractor changed. In a government facility that would be impossible. The problem is that if some people get what they want and all the private prisons are closed in Mississippi then the prisoners will go back to the care of the public system who care so little about them that the head of prisons did not get around to reading the weekly reports. If state officials care so little about prisoners that they can not right decent contracts or monitor private prisons then why should we expect those same state officials to do a better job or running the state prison system?

You’re pretty much wrong from start to finish.

You say that government facilities can’t be closed. Well, this was an example of government facilities being closed and why it can be a bad idea to close them. The private facilities that replaced them didn’t work as well.

A private prison company can’t just close down a bad prison and write if off. It’s pretty much their primary asset. If they close down the prison, they go bankrupt. And what are you going sell a used prison for?

The state officials who ran the government prisons were apparently doing a better job than the company executives who are running them now. Those state officials didn’t decide to turn the business over to private companies; that decision was made by legislators.

The smart thing to do now would be to give the prisons back over to the management of the state officials who were doing the job before. And then replace the legislators in the next election.

Sometimes when theory tells you something should work but reality is telling you it isn’t working, you need to listen to reality.

[Tastes_of_Chocolate]

On the financial side, Report Finds Two-Thirds of Private Prison Contracts Include “Lockup Quotas”

2/3rds of private prison contracts require a minimum occupancy level, or the government pays for the unused space. This creates an incentive to either sentence more people to prison, or to give longer sentences. “We’re already paying for it, might as well use it.”

From the Bay Correctional Facility in Florida, 90% occupancy is guaranteed, or the prison operators are paid 90% of the per diem. From the same article, there are 3 prisons in Arizona what have 100% occupancy guarantees.

[puddleglum]

@Czarcasm

For example…?
Please show an example of this happening.

For those in jurisdictions where Google is not available.

[puddleglum]

@andros

Interesting. Even the private prison lobby says it’s less than 50%. But don’t worry, not providing sources for your claims only bolsters your argument.

I suppose that is why you did it, but for the skeptical hereare the actual numbers.

[puddleglum]

@Tastes_of_Chocolate

On the financial side, Report Finds Two-Thirds of Private Prison Contracts Include “Lockup Quotas”

2/3rds of private prison contracts require a minimum occupancy level, or the government pays for the unused space. This creates an incentive to either sentence more people to prison, or to give longer sentences. “We’re already paying for it, might as well use it.”

From the Bay Correctional Facility in Florida, 90% occupancy is guaranteed, or the prison operators are paid 90% of the per diem. From the same article, there are 3 prisons in Arizona what have 100% occupancy guarantees.

In Florida, 90% of inmates are housed in public prisons, in Arizona the number is 13%, so there is plenty of places to get prisoners without locking more people up.