Posting again to address the last couple of words here: most people don’t consider Jews to be a race.
Leonard Cohen doesn’t look a thing like Matthew Broderick, and Stephen Spielberg doesn’t look anything like Jennifer Aniston. There aren’t any reliable Internet cites for Aniston being Jewish, but even if she were, there’s zero resemblance whatsoever between those two people. And I think that speaks volumes about the question you’re asking.
Why the fixation on rape, Argent Towers? It sounds like you’re assuming Jews always intermarry and interbreed, which they don’t. I’m sure they do those things at a high rate, but still.
It’s not a fixation, it’s just a fact. I mean, I did take many classes in Jewish history for my BA in history, and in fact I would have had a Jewish Studies minor if I had taken Hebrew. One of the things you learn when you study the history of the Jewish people is that their women were very often raped. Intermarriage between Jews and Gentiles was unbelievably rare; consensual sex happened occasionally, in the form of extramarital affairs, but it was also rare especially in countries where Jews lived in their own villages and not among the general population. But one needs only to read about the history of anti-Jewish violence all over the world for the past thousand years for five minutes to get an understanding of how much rape went on. I know it’s an unsavory thing to think about, but that’s just what happened.
The OP is meshugga!
Haven’t read many of Argent’s posts, have you, Marley?
Uh…what exactly do you mean?
I mean that you’re very diligent in keeping us educated, Argent. Be proud.
If you’re going to insult me in a thread where I’m just trying to provide factual advice, at least be honest about it (and clear about it, because I don’t understand exactly what the hell you’re trying to imply.)
Whole up there, bro. Ethnos is not the same as Erthnicity. The latter can be and usually is a purely genetic construct. It was not itself a major bone of contention between neighbors, however anywhere I know of in the ancient world. And it was definitely not clearly delineated in any way we moderns understand.
I’m sure it happened a lot, such as in the wake of World War II. And yes, Jews were often ghettoized, which would have only increased the rate of intermarriage. But you pretty much blamed rape for all genetic variation among Jews, which is extreme. I don’t suppose you could provide a cite for intermarriage rates or something just to back it up?
I think we should drop this.
It isn’t now, though. Quite a few of the Jews you’ll meet who are under the age of, say, 40 will have one parent who was born Jewish and one who was not (the non-Jewish parent may or may not have converted to Judaism, but that obviously wouldn’t affect their genes). And there are a fair number of Jews who are themselves converts, and have no Jewish ancestry.
Done.
First of all it happened much more than just in the wake of World War II. You realize that Jews have lived in Europe for about 2000 years, right? And throughout all of that time, there were massive military campaigns that swept across nations, carrying with them all manner of rape and pillage. This was no means limited to the Jews or anything; this pillaging and raping affected everybody who was unfortunate enough to be in its path. You are aware that rape was pretty much universal for any village or city which was sacked by enemy soldiers? And of course the Jews got it comparatively worse than others in certain areas, like in Eastern Europe, where there were systematic pogroms specifically targeting Jews for several hundred years, in addition to the run of the mill pillaging by warbands which happened to towns of all ethnicities and religions?
As for your second point about intermarriage increasing because of ghettoization, that doesn’t make sense. Did you meant to write “increased?” There were Jews who intermarried into Christian families but this would have been accompanied by a conversion to Christianity. There were not Christians converting to Judaism and intermarrying into Jewish families. There may have been one or two cases per hundred years, but otherwise this was unthinkable.
Yes, but the thing is, even though the area got Arabized and Islamicised, there wasn’t a lot of actual migration from the Arabian peninsula. In other words, the people who lived there before the Arab conquest just started identifying themselves as Arabs after the Arab conquest, but there wasn’t much in the way of actual gene pool change.
Not in Arabia? Perhaps I misunderstand what you’re saying.
Although people often use “Sephardic” loosely to include Jews living in Arab countries, strictly speaking it only applies to those descended from Iberian Jews. Populations living in Arab lands are Mizrahi.
He’s the one that died for your sins (c.f. R. Friedman. Transformers: The Movie, The)
The definition of Sephardim (Spaniards) as used in this thread is a massive oversimplification. At least in Israel, the term used is Mizrachim (Easterners). Some Mizrachim are Sephardim, but they’re probably a pretty small minority of the group as a whole. For instance, one of the largest Jewish populations in the world are the Persian Jews, who are Mizrachim, but having absolutely no connection to the Spanish Jews expelled in 1492, are not Sephardim.
As I understand it, DNA tests have shown that Ashkenazim and Mizrachim are more closely related to each other than they are to the surrounding non-Jewish populations, but there are significant cultural and religious differences. Israeli Mizrachim make up the majority of the Jewish population (by a small degree), but have significantly lower socioeconomic status than Israeli Ashkenazim.
FWIW, nearly all North American Jews are Ashkenazim.
“Such as” means the succeeding phrase will be an example. You make a good case that the raping was more common than I’d realized.
I wasn’t clear. Ghettoization would have increased marriages between Jews at the expense of marriage between Jews and gentiles. I guess the former would be intramarriage and the latter would be intermarriage.
This really cries out for a cite.
Huh - ignorance fought!