What are the two different types of Jews (ethnicity)

[Punoqllads]

Here: assume that every 20 years, a Jewish community loses 0.3% of its population from people leaving and are replaced by Gentiles who marry into the community. From that, the estimated Gentile genetic heritage in the Jewish community after 1500 years would be approximately 1 - (1 - 0.003)[sup]75[/sup]. That’s about 20%.

[Dr.Drake]

@smiling_bandit

Whole up there, bro. Ethnos is not the same as Erthnicity. The latter can be and usually is a purely genetic construct. It was not itself a major bone of contention between neighbors, however anywhere I know of in the ancient world. And it was definitely not clearly delineated in any way we moderns understand.

Well, if “we moderns” is you, “we” have a radically different notion of ethnicity. The OED mentions “culture” / “cultural,” but the words “gene” and “genetic” are absent. The “ethnos” is the group of people; “ethnicity” is the quality of belonging to it. Genetics is not involved. Adopted children are not of a different ethnicity from their parents. My grandfather is genetically Swedish. He has never been to Sweden, does not speak Swedish, did not marry a Swede, and does not practice any distinctively Swedish customs. How could you say he was ethnically Swedish? He has nothing in common with the Swedes except genetics.

Some people (notably U.S. government bureaucrats) use “ethnicity” to mean “race” on forms, because it is felt to be more polite, but even “race” isn’t a genetic construct but a social one.

@OED

Pertaining to race; peculiar to a race or nation; ethnological. Also, pertaining to or having common racial, cultural, religious, or linguistic characteristics, esp. designating a racial or other group within a larger system

[wmfellows]

@smiling_bandit

Ok, well I just accidentally closed my long reply. I won’t rewrite it all.

Short form: that’s kinda not really at all true. Palestinians are ethnically and culturally Arabs and identify as such - and there was no Palestine then. While there were no hard borders, Arab settlements were mostly in Jordan and Sinai. Arabs are a Semitic people, but thay would have been distinct tribes and smewhat different ethnicities. Arabs were not Jews, even leaving religion aside. However, there was no clear-cut concept of ethnicity then (or today for what matter).

Well, I think your correction needs a correction. The “Arabs” of the Levant are acculturated Arabs, not all descended from the original Arabs. One would expect that a good percentage of Palestinians are in fact descendants of Cananites, Hellenized Jews etc. as in fact are pretty much of the same descent group as the original Jewish source population.

[DanBlather]

Which are the short Jews that live under bridges?

[panache45]

@Marley23

By the way, which of the two groups does Lenny Kravitz fit into?

The same group as Whoopi Goldberg.

[wmfellows]

@Argent_Towers

First of all it happened much more than just in the wake of World War II. You realize that Jews have lived in Europe for about 2000 years, right?

I think it would have been worth mentioning speculation regarding the founder effect, that is initial Jewish communities in farther reaches of Europe lacked sufficient womenfolk and initially brought in women by conversion (a potentially ongoing process). This would seem as plausible an explanation as just rape.

@Captain_Amazing

Yes, but the thing is, even though the area got Arabized and Islamicised, there wasn’t a lot of actual migration from the Arabian peninsula. In other words, the people who lived there before the Arab conquest just started identifying themselves as Arabs after the Arab conquest, but there wasn’t much in the way of actual gene pool change.

Bollocks, I missed this. Well, my comment adds to the Captain’s

[Argent_Towers]

Marley23, I think the burden is on you to provide a cite that any meaningful numbers of European Gentiles ever converted to Judaism. I took Jewish history classes for five years, mostly concerning the experiences of Jews in Europe, and I never learned of any European Christians converting to Judaism. There would have been no reason for them to. Jews do not seek out converts. They do not go around trying to “witness” to other religious groups. And there would have been no incentive whatsoever for a Gentile to become a Jew anywhere in Europe.

[Marley23]

@Argent_Towers

Marley23, I think the burden is on you to provide a cite that any meaningful numbers of European Gentiles ever converted to Judaism.

I don’t think I asserted they did. But I don’t think there would be a lot of numbers to support either case.

Jews do not seek out converts.

I’m well aware. Even so, I’ve known a handful of converts.

They do not go around trying to “witness” to other religious groups.

This is mostly true, but the Lubavitchers might like to have a word with you about it.

[Punoqllads]

@Marley23

@Argent_Towers

They do not go around trying to “witness” to other religious groups.

This is mostly true, but the Lubavitchers might like to have a word with you about it.

If you ask the Lubavitchers, they’ll tell you that they’re not witnessing to other religious groups, they’re only witnessing to Jews.

[Henrichek]

Well, I learned something too. I find it quite interesting that there’s a special word, gentiles, to represent non-jews. Are there any similar terms for other non- ethnicities? Or is it religion-based?

[Punoqllads]

Well, infidel for non-Muslim, heathen for non-Christian.

[Argent_Towers]

Those words sort of have an innately cruel connotation though…Gentile doesn’t really have that. It can be used respectfully.

[Punoqllads]

Well, how about the Amish calling non-Amish Americans “English”?

[DSeid]

FWIW.

Key findings:

The main ethnic element of Ashkenazim (German and Eastern European Jews), Sephardim (Spanish and Portuguese Jews), Mizrakhim (Middle Eastern Jews), Juhurim (Mountain Jews of the Caucasus), Italqim (Italian Jews), and most other modern Jewish populations of the world is Israelite. The Israelite haplotypes fall into Y-DNA haplogroups J and E.

Ashkenazim also descend, in a smaller way, from European peoples such as Slavs and Khazars. The non-Israelite Y-DNA haplogroups include Q (typically Central Asian) and R1a1 (typically Eastern European).

Dutch Jews from the Netherlands also descend from northwestern Europeans.

Sephardim also descend, in a smaller way, from various non-Israelite peoples.

Georgian Jews (Gruzinim) are a mix of Georgians and Israelites.

Yemenite Jews (Temanim) are a mix of Yemenite Arabs and Israelites.

Moroccan Jews, Algerian Jews, and Tunisian Jews are mainly Israelites.

Libyan Jews are mainly Israelites who may have mixed somewhat with Berbers.

Ethiopian Jews are almost exclusively Ethiopian, with little or no Israelite ancestry.

Bene Israel Jews and Cochin Jews of India have much Indian ancestry in their mtDNA.

Palestinian Arabs are probably partly Israelite.

<snip>

The Cohen Modal Haplotype is found among many Jewish populations of the world, including Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and the Bene Israel of India.

The Cohen Modal Haplotype, which belongs to haplogroup J, was a component of the ancient Israelite population, and especially common among the Cohens (priests of the Temple in Jerusalem).

The Cohen Modal Haplotype is not exclusively found among Jews, but rather is also found among Kurds, Armenians, Italians, Palestinian Arabs, and a few other peoples.

About half of Ashkenazic Levites possess Eastern European non-Israelite haplotypes belonging to the R1a1 haplogroup. This is almost never found among Sephardic Levites, and may have been introduced into the Ashkenazic Levite lines by Slavs or Khazars who converted to Judaism.

So indeed there was a meaningful genetic contribution of (minimally formerly) non-Jewish European males to the modern Ashkenazic gene pool, among many intermixings over the years. However they got there.

[DSeid]

I actually have only heard Gentile as a word used respectfully. Of course in my experience the Yiddish word, goy was used nonjudgmentally as well, even if the individual being referred to was being found wanting in some way.

The Japanese refer to all non-Japanese as gaijin, usually in a pejorative manner.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Marley23

I’m well aware. Even so, I’ve known a handful of converts.

Also, in medieval Europe, it was illegal to convert from Christianity to Judaism, so that undoubtedly discouraged people.

[Argent_Towers]

@DSeid

Bene Israel Jews and Cochin Jews of India have much Indian ancestry in their mtDNA.

What about Bene Gesserit Jews?

[Captain_Amazing]

@Henrichek

Well, I learned something too. I find it quite interesting that there’s a special word, gentiles, to represent non-jews. Are there any similar terms for other non- ethnicities? Or is it religion-based?

Most languages have a word for “foreigner”.

[mangeorge]

I asked a similar question a few years ago about Brits being sort of in two groups, but my examples, IIRC, were Phil Collins and Prince Charles. I got this idea from watching too much PBS. I still do.
Some responders like to bit my head off.
Go figure!
BTW; I don’t know, or recognize, that many Jews. Does that help?

[Marley23]

@Henrichek

Well, I learned something too. I find it quite interesting that there’s a special word, gentiles, to represent non-jews.

In practice it usually means non-Jew, but it can mean any non-member of a predominant religious group. The real world for a non-Jew is goy.