What are your main beefs with Christianity?

Great Debates
141

[QUOTE=FriarTed]
I wasn’t comparing myself to Jesus- I was just noting that the accusation of arrogance on the part of Christians can just as well be leveled at Jesus.

The Church as a whole & Christians as individual are flawed, sinful, hypocritical,
sometimes downright monstrous. I do not challenge that at all. BUT even if
every Christian for the past 2000 were consistently faithful & virtuous & compassionate, a lot of people would still resent Christians, the Christian Faith
& the Church because of one message-

Jesus is Lord and they are not.

THAT is the real “arrogance” that many people cannot stand. I’m not thrilled by it myself sometimes. Jesus can really mess up one’s hopes & dreams & desires.
[/QUOTE]

Well I can assure you FriarTed that I could never be the least bit disturbed that Jesus is Lord and I am not . I can only endeavor to put His words into practice to the best of *my *ability. I am not my brothers keeper I am my own .The thing is if every Christian, was his own keeper and followed what Jesus said the world would be a very different place. I was reading the Bible today and I’d like to share something with you . It’s Luke 11:17. But He , knowing their thoughts said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation ; and a house divided against a house falleth. I believe Jesus is speaking of what Christianity has become and churches in general . Christians are so hung up on following what their church says that they forget to read the words that Jesus left for us. It divides Christians and pits them against each other and this comes from we as humans judging one another.

142

[QUOTE=AHunter3]
Did Jesus of Nazareth indend that as individuals those who wished to follow him should personally forgive those who have wronged them, share what they have with those who are less well off, and refrain from judging others, embracing everyone as a brother (or presumably as a sister)?

I would assume he did.

Did Jesus of Nazareth intend ONLY that, or did Jesus of Nazareth intend also that those who wished to follow him should attempt to create a society in which the laws, rules, social codes, economics, religions strictures, and so forth were all brought into alignment with the principle that everyone should always forgive those who wrong them (ergo, no punishment, period), share what they have with those who are less well off (ergo, no personal property, period), and refrain from judging others (ergo, that clause in combo with beforementionee no punishment = no structured authority of some people over other people at all, period)?

I would assume he did.

Do you seriously think that one iota of his intentionality was directed towards getting himself nailed up on a cross, on purpose, in order that his Daddy God would forgive everyone for original sin? Do you think his efforts were all aimed at getting folks to accept him personally as their Lord and Savior, the gilding of the messenger?

I would assume he did NOT. The good messenger wants you to get the message, and that was his focus. Not the messenger, the message.

It has been noted that a great deal of his ministry seemed to juxtapose and bring into conflict the letter of the law (which, in a non-secular society was simultaneously the religious law and the everyday civil law) versus the spirit of the law. Do you think he intentionally sought out that juxtaposition in order to make some point about the relative merits of the letter of the law and the spirit of the law?

I would assume he did.

Has it ever crossed your mind as a possibility that the outcome he might have intended w/regards to the sequence of events leading to his crucifixion was some kind of showdown between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law? Did it ever occur to you to consider that he was clever, not stupid, and if he were in that situation he probably provoked it to make a point?

C’mon. I damn well KNOW he did. I’ve read the same book you did. And c’mon again: the compellingly obvious scenario was that the enforcers of the law would have to back down. Because he had not in fact actually done anything wrong and it was obvious that such was the case. Letter or spirit, you know what I do, c’mon make your choice.

I don’t think he anticpated the local Jewish folks punting and putting the decision the hands of the Romans. Maybe he did; maybe he was ready to up the ante. At any rate, it went bad, it went wrong.

People who intentionally arrange to get offed are called “suicidal”. Do you seriously want to suggest that we should follow one who said “follow me” and who then deliberately got himself killed?

Oops.

Damn brave of him. Risked his life fairly often just to illustrate a point. You can’t encapsulate the will of God in text. You can write inspired text, but better the people should seek their own answers than blindly kowtow to the sacred parchment, the Document, the Law. Look, and I will make you realize that.

Jesus the Strategist. I absolutely hated The Last Temptation of Christ because it portrayed him as profoundly stupid and in the grip of events. No fucking way. Go take a fresh read of the source material. He had a set of interwoven intentions, they were radical, and he planned everything and executed most of it downright exquisitely.

You wanna know what my main beef with Christianity is, for real? You’ve taxidermied him. Dipped his corpse in gold-plate and stuck him up front and told us to worship him as a fucking Icon. He would hurl chunks. You folks mostly don’t have a clue about he whom you claim to worship, you really don’t.
[/QUOTE]

You know I haven’t seen that movie so I can’t speak to that but what you have said here is pure gold. He was here to teach us not be God. That is His fathers job. If only more people would **really ** read his words things would be a lot clearer. All through the Bible when God wanted to say something He used a prophet. Here He sent His only Son to teach us how to live with each other through love and sacrifice and courage in the face of every evil thing that gets thrown at us and we squander it. I’m done with that crap . For me it’s time to walk the walk. Just the way He tells me to. I’ll let you in on a secret though that I don’t spread around too much . I’m scared shitless to watch that movie. I know what happened to Jesus but having to see it ? That makes my get choked up. Maybe I’ll take your advice and just not watch it at all .

143

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
And those central and basic things probably change according to the sect.

There’s no one definition of Christianity, so saying who is or isn’t is just a drawn out game of “Whack-a-Scotsman.”
[/QUOTE]
I heartily disagree. There may not be a single definition of Christianity, but this does not mean that all definitions are fair game. That does not logically follow.

Heck, people disagree on exactly what atheism is. Some say that it’s active disbelief in God, whereas others maintain that it’s merely a lack of belief. Does this mean that we cannot render any judgments regarding who is or who is not an atheist? Of course not.

Besides, if one’s going to say, “Well, people can adopt whichever definition of Christianity they wish,” then one no longer has a logical basis for objecting to Christianity in general. At best, one can only object to Christianity as practiced according to a particular definition. It is therefore foolish to talk about having any “mean beefs with Christianity,” as though Christianity were some monolithic entity.

So are there individuals who say that Christianity is true “just because” and that it requires no logical defense.? I’m sure that they are. This is completely at odds with the clear teachings of Paul, though. It is also in conflict with the gospels, in which Jesus appealed to claims of prophetic fulfillment to justify his claims. At no point did Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, or any Biblical writer say that Christianity was true “just because.” A run-of-the-mill believer may think otherwise, but that’s merely a testament to his or her ignorance though, and is not a reflection of Christian teaching.

144

[QUOTE=JThunder]
I heartily disagree. There may not be a single definition of Christianity, but this does not mean that all definitions are fair game.
[/QUOTE]

All definitions? Maybe not. But all the definitions I’ve ever run across seem perfectly valid to me. Everyone I’ve ever run across who calls him or herself a Christian had the same authority you do.

It’s like a political party, to me. The party is what the members of the party make of it. Christianity is what people calling themselves Christian make of it. I accept no one’s authority to say any different.

145

It’s not just Christianity, it’s religions in general. And they are all lies from start to finish.

146

My beef is that Christianity teaches Jesus died for our sins, but we’re still not allowed to sin. This is like someone offering to pay all your restaurant bills for life, no matter where you eat, but then telling you to cook more meals at home, while at the same time telling you how grateful you should be. And if he did die for our sins, isn’t it rude not to sin as much as possible? If I suffered died for someone’s sins I’d be pissed if it was only for a few impure thoughts and a candy bar stolen when they were 8.

I also don’t like the way it teaches that God thinks you can never be good enough to get to Heaven on your own, thanks to Original Sin. Compare this to the Jewish God, who thinks you can be good enough, but even if you fail to be at least you get points for trying.

147

[QUOTE=sciurophobic]
My beef is that Christianity teaches Jesus died for our sins, but we’re still not allowed to sin. This is like someone offering to pay all your restaurant bills for life, no matter where you eat, but then telling you to cook more meals at home, while at the same time telling you how grateful you should be. And if he did die for our sins, isn’t it rude not to sin as much as possible? If I suffered died for someone’s sins I’d be pissed if it was only for a few impure thoughts and a candy bar stolen when they were 8.

I also don’t like the way it teaches that God thinks you can never be good enough to get to Heaven on your own, thanks to Original Sin. Compare this to the Jewish God, who thinks you can be good enough, but even if you fail to be at least you get points for trying.
[/QUOTE]

You’re not allowed to sin ? My friend, you were born into sin . You can’t avoid it . Do you think you could live without being forgiven ? If even by yourself.You would go insane if you couldn’t live with the things you do. The hardest thing for me is to realize that I am forgiven . Does that mean I have carte’ blanche to sin ? Of course not . Only a child would believe that. Take solace in the fact that you are forgiven but that doesn’t mean do evil things. If you don’t know what is right get close to God. He will make it apparent to you like night and day. What amazes me is that even as children we know what is right and wrong . Do we always do right ? NO. But you must try your hardest and when you stray ask Him to forgive you, if you think you must, and it is granted. Your candy bar is nothing compared to killing . How do you think soldiers feel ? My job is killing because someone told me to.This is the lot of the soldier. You think about that for a while and get back to me.

148

[QUOTE=Omegaman]
You’re not allowed to sin ? My friend, you were born into sin . You can’t avoid it . Do you think you could live without being forgiven ? If even by yourself.You would go insane if you couldn’t live with the things you do. The hardest thing for me is to realize that I am forgiven . Does that mean I have carte’ blanche to sin ? Of course not . Only a child would believe that. Take solace in the fact that you are forgiven but that doesn’t mean do evil things. If you don’t know what is right get close to God. He will make it apparent to you like night and day. What amazes me is that even as children we know what is right and wrong . Do we always do right ? NO. But you must try your hardest and when you stray ask Him to forgive you, if you think you must, and it is granted. Your candy bar is nothing compared to killing . How do you think soldiers feel ? My job is killing because someone told me to.This is the lot of the soldier. You think about that for a while and get back to me.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t remember requesting a sermon. I was simply making observations about a religion to which I happily don’t belong.

149

[QUOTE=JThunder]
Whether atheism is a “belief” or not is irrelevant (and inaccurate, as it depends on which flavor of atheism one expounds). The point is that there’s frequently a difference between what people believe and what the tenets of their religion/worldview/philosophy actually hold. It’s unfair to condemn a religion when its proponents act in disobedience to its tenets.
[/QUOTE]

Is it? Certainly it’s reasonable to draw some conclusions about a religion when so many don’t actually follow it’s tenets. If the religion is made up of too much form without enough substance. Too much ritual without truly transforming lives, then what purpose does it serve? Surely when proponents don’t really follow the teachings of Christ we can draw some conclusions about the religion.

Incorrect. As with the above paragraph, Christianity as a whole is completely responsible for what is taught and stressed from the pulpit, in the Sunday schools, in the private Christian schools, in the weekly Bible study.

If belief in the resurrection is stressed over people striving to live a Christ like life, then Christianity is to blame. If they are more interested in praising him with words and song rather than living his teachings then Christianity is to blame. If preventing gays from marrying is stressed as more important than the fight against poverty and hunger, and war, then the portion of Christianity that teaches that is responsible.

No religion is perfect. No religious followers are perfect. We must however, make some judgment call about the value of a religion based upon the real life actions of it’s proponents. Here in the south you can see too many examples of the business of Christianity.

I’m happy to say that now many Christians are standing up and not letting a vocal hateful few dominate the dialog. They have an opportunity to reclaim the name of Christianity for principles more in keeping with what JC taught. God be with them, if you’ll pardon the pun…or even if you won’t.

150

[QUOTE=sciurophobic]
I don’t remember requesting a sermon. I was simply making observations about a religion to which I happily don’t belong.
[/QUOTE]

Well if you don’t sow His seed, you scatter it. Your belonging and happiness are your providence. We would be happy to have you though. Never enough soldiers to fight the good fight in my opinion.

151

[QUOTE=Omegaman]
Well if you don’t sow His seed, you scatter it. Your belonging and happiness are your providence. We would be happy to have you though. Never enough soldiers to fight the good fight in my opinion.
[/QUOTE]

That’s assuming a bit my friend.

152

[QUOTE=Omegaman]
Well if you don’t sow His seed, you scatter it. Your belonging and happiness are your providence. We would be happy to have you though. Never enough soldiers to fight the good fight in my opinion.
[/QUOTE]

We Jews were fighting the good fight long before the Christians showed up.

153

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
That’s assuming a bit my friend.
[/QUOTE]

Well I’m not trying to make an ass of you , but me ? Well history speaks for itself. One responds in a thread about Christianity then complains about a sermon ? Would you prefer I make it up as I go along ? Did I not speak the truth that was spoken by He who I follow? If not correct me.I do not claim to know all there is to know of Him. Only the words I have read with my own eyes. Do you see something I do not ? Please give me your understanding. I have seen your words here before and they have always struck me as true. Don’t let me lie. Correct me please, friend.

154

[QUOTE=sciurophobic]
We Jews were fighting the good fight long before the Christians showed up.
[/QUOTE]

I cast no ill will on any man of God. But you attach Gods demands to His Sons demands solely. Thats why he came here and gave His life of His own free will. To forgive us of our sins. Your belief is your belief. You deny Jesus is the Son of God , that is your right. The law by which I live is the law of The Father through His Son. Don’t break the law as you believe it. It is wrong. Please don’t think I preach to you again. If you doubt it, read it. To you it may not be true but still it is written.

155

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
That’s assuming a bit my friend.
[/QUOTE]

And dont think I judge anyone . Right is right. Wrong is wrong . No one needs a Bible to know this. But courage and integrity and honesty are an absolute must to stand tall for what is right. I’m sure having lived in this world you know all about it.

156

Pretty much all the criticisms in this thread. It’s an illogical belief system, based on an ancient book filled with ignorance, irrationality and evil. And regardless of it’s correctness, it’s followers have inflicted immense amounts of suffering, tyranny and destruction in it’s name on the world; I’d oppose it even if I thought it was true.

It involves worship and faith, which I don’t approve of. It has zero evidence for it’s claims. It promotes hatred and oppression towards women. It promotes hatred and contempt towards all other beliefs; pretty much innate to monotheism. It justifies utter ruthlessness with such beliefs as Hell and the soul. It is all consuming and all corrupting; it tries to twist or destroy everything it can touch. It is grim and hateful and depressing, a religon of hatred towards all things, including oneself. A religion that is all about death and hatred and the veneration of suffering, whose symbol is an instrument of torture and death. It is hypocritical, pushing hate and misery and death while it’s followers make smirking speeches about love and peace. It opposes happiness and pleasure in any form save grovelling and malice. It opposes knowledge and reason; favoring ignorance and madness over them.

157

[QUOTE=Omegaman]
Well I’m not trying to make an ass of you , but me ? Well history speaks for itself. One responds in a thread about Christianity then complains about a sermon ? Would you prefer I make it up as I go along ? Did I not speak the truth that was spoken by He who I follow? If not correct me.I do not claim to know all there is to know of Him. Only the words I have read with my own eyes. Do you see something I do not ? Please give me your understanding. I have seen your words here before and they have always struck me as true. Don’t let me lie. Correct me please, friend.
[/QUOTE]

The title of the thread is “What are your beefs with Christianity?” which was what the poster presented, and I think the post was meant to be humorous but maybe not. I don’t think anything you wrote was an intentional lie. It’s fine to share your understanding and beliefs. Just be aware that your version of the truth is only that. Your version. None of us have it completely right.

There’s a lot to learn. Enough for a lifetime of learning and growing. Before we get concerned about scattering or sowing his seed we need to sort the the real seed from the bogus ones. There’s what is written, selected by other men, and then there’s people’s interpretation of what is written.

158

[QUOTE=Omegaman]
And dont think I judge anyone . Right is right. Wrong is wrong . No one needs a Bible to know this. But courage and integrity and honesty are an absolute must to stand tall for what is right. I’m sure having lived in this world you know all about it.
[/QUOTE]

I think we all make judgments. I don’t see any way to avoid it.
Don’t forget the humility ingredient. Most of us are a mix of right and wrong, doing some good things and making some mistakes. That’s Christians and non Christians. By all means, stand up for what you think is right, with the wisdom to know you will make mistakes that will help you learn and grow. With the integrity to admit those mistakes and learn from others who follow a different path.

159

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Pretty much all the criticisms in this thread. It’s an illogical belief system, based on an ancient book filled with ignorance, irrationality and evil. And regardless of it’s correctness, it’s followers have inflicted immense amounts of suffering, tyranny and destruction in it’s name on the world; I’d oppose it even if I thought it was true.

It involves worship and faith, which I don’t approve of. It has zero evidence for it’s claims. It promotes hatred and oppression towards women. It promotes hatred and contempt towards all other beliefs; pretty much innate to monotheism. It justifies utter ruthlessness with such beliefs as Hell and the soul. It is all consuming and all corrupting; it tries to twist or destroy everything it can touch. It is grim and hateful and depressing, a religon of hatred towards all things, including oneself. A religion that is all about death and hatred and the veneration of suffering, whose symbol is an instrument of torture and death. It is hypocritical, pushing hate and misery and death while it’s followers make smirking speeches about love and peace. It opposes happiness and pleasure in any form save grovelling and malice. It opposes knowledge and reason; favoring ignorance and madness over them.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but other than that, it’s OK.

160

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
The title of the thread is “What are your beefs with Christianity?” which was what the poster presented, and I think the post was meant to be humorous but maybe not. I don’t think anything you wrote was an intentional lie. It’s fine to share your understanding and beliefs. Just be aware that your version of the truth is only that. Your version. None of us have it completely right.

There’s a lot to learn. Enough for a lifetime of learning and growing. Before we get concerned about scattering or sowing his seed we need to sort the the real seed from the bogus ones. There’s what is written, selected by other men, and then there’s people’s interpretation of what is written.
[/QUOTE]

Well I appreciate your council. That is why I’m here . For know all I have is what I’ve read both in the Bible and here. It isn’t easy picking through some of the hateful shit that is spewed here and some of the interpretations in the Bible. I am here to learn and be a better man. But in the end the truth, for me anyway, has a way of shining through the chaff. Don’t mistake my willingness to quote the Bible as self-righteousness on my part. I am only a servant of God trying my best to do His will.