Yesterday a friend told us he was re-visiting Peru, for a 28 day Ayahuasca retreat. Apparently he will be staying somewhere in the jungle, where he will undergo 10 Ayahuasca sessions. He described it as “therapy.”
What are your thoughts about such an adventure? Have you ever done such a thing - with Ayahuasca or any other hallucinogen? Or maybe even a non-chemical-assisted retreat? Would you do such a thing? Why or why not?
I’m glad my friend is doing something he wants to do, and I have no objection to anyone doing just about any drugs for just about any reason. (Mushrooms were always my personal fave.) But the idea of traveling so far and spending a bunch of coin to do drugs with the expectation of introspection and personal growth strikes me as somewhat odd.
Yes, I understand the providers and environment are intended to enhance your experience. But it wouldn’t be the first time someone tried to make a buck selling something that is purported to be “good for you.” He said he had never done any hallucinogens. I wonder if my personal experiences having done various substances either already expanded my mind, or caused me to be dubious as to their life-changing potential. Tho I have heard many a story of folk experiencing self-growth and discovery from acid trips, and realize hallucinogens are being proposed for various therapies.
I also thought it curious that he said he would not tell some friends/family/co-workers what he was doing on his trip. Which just sorta seems odd, to do something on vacation that you did not feel free to mention. I understand where he is coming from, but it is just another factor that contributed to my mixed thoughts.
I don’t have a problem with the traveling or the secrecy in principle. People travel for all sorts of reasons and this would probably be pretty memorable. And recreational drug use carries a stigma. I agree it’s a long way to go for a first time for hallucinogens/psychedelics.
It must be difficult for someone interested in drugs to get started in a later stage in life. If you haven’t had experience with the culture and contacts in the scene, I don’t know where you’d go to get what you’d need outside of Colorado and Oregon.
While I don’t have any thoughts to offer about this sort of experience, I was curious about the actual drug that was involved. In the process of looking it up I found this article about the Ayahuasca experience:
As for the drug, it’s DMT (N,N-dimethyltryptamine) which is in the same tryptamine family of hallucinogens as LSD. The Ayahuasca ritual combines DMT with a monoamine oxidase inhibitor from another plant, allegedly to prolong its effects which would otherwise be fairly short.
I hope your friend finds what he’s looking for. 28 days seems like an excessively long time, though, and a pretty serious commitment. There are apparently much shorter Ayahuasca retreats.
I’ve done 8 LSD trips within a month. It’s not that bad. LSD tends to have a lesser and lesser effect as you build up a certain tolerance. (Apparently there is cross-tolerance with psilocybin/psylocin mushrooms too)
Ayahuasca does not have that tolerance, except that obviously experience helps - once you know how the trip is likely to be you are more mentally prepared for the next one.
I am interested in doing ayahuasca, but having smoked DMT without any MAOIs, I am extremely nervous about spending 10 to 12 hours in that universe. DMT alone is very serious stuff, albeit for just a few minutes.
Well, DMT (and by extension ayahuasca) is much more visual and potentially overwhelming than LSD, and to some Westerners the idea of tripping under the guidance of a shaman or other traditional practitioner is more attractive than just taking the drug in modern-day conditions.
The forum is IMHO and the OP asks what I think, so here it is: It’s a fucking terrible idea. You do something like that once in a lifetime, not 10 times in a month, and it’s not something that’s necessary for anyone or even a good idea for most people. It sounds like he’s got some kind of misguided notion about this, especially considering that he’s never done any hallucinogens. If he’s your friend, as you say, and if I were you, I’d ask why it appeals to him and what he thinks is going to happen during the experience and afterward, and then I’d do my best to convince him not to do it.
Puking on psychedelics that make you puke is somehow different (or at least it feels different subjectively) than puking because of sickness or too much food or alcohol; it becomes just part of the experience and even enhances it. I remember the first time I took enough Peyote to trigger throwing up–the urge to purge came on very fast and sudden, and I immediately urpsed profusely into the fire pit right as the mescaline started to hit me hard–it was, at the moment, just about the funniest thing in the world, so for a few seconds I was actually vomiting and laughing uprageously at the very same time.
In the 1950s, under government contract, for research purposes under the Aegis of MkUltra they kept a few state prisoners tripping on LSD for 77 days, or tried to. It takes ever increasing doses. When the subjects tried to sleep, they awakened them with cattle prods.
Your tax dollars at work, or something.
In the 1960s the “Manson Family” was famous or infamous for lots of drug taking, especially LSD. Tex Watson mentioned something about Belladonna in testimony or interviews, but based on his detailed description of the plant was undoubtedly identifying Datura, or “loco weed” a fairly common desert plant. This probably helps explain many of their psychotic episodes alone.
I visited Peru in 2019, and part of our trip was to the Amazon. The little town we passed thru to access the river boats has Ayahuasca shops right there in town. We learned that the locals are not very keen on rich anglos coming there for a commercialized experience of something somewhat important to them. Anyway, we later went on a guided jungle walk and our guide pointed out the plant used to make Ayahuasca, which is a very plain-looking shrub. I asked him if he’d done it, and he said yes, sevaral times.
So, a guy that lives there has only done it “several times”, and your friend will do it several times in one month? Yeah, sounds like a bad idea. Oh, and it’s not just puking from what I understand. It’s a total alimentary evacuation, from both ends, sometimes simultaneous, so lots of shitting, too. I’ll pass on that experience.
I’ve not been brave enough to try Datura either; a well experienced friend told me not to, after his attempts.
It apears to be “not much fun”, a category I also would into which place amanita muscaria mushrooms.
But we seem to be driving off topic.
My DMT experiences have been in the category of “interesting” - scary as fuck, but interesting. I will not do amanita again, but DMT was sufficiently interesting to go back, and even try ayahuasca.
Probably not in the style of the OP’s friend, though.
Hmm… a friend of mine said he took the bus out to some Mayan ruin, spent all day doing mushrooms, and went back in the evening. Said he quite enjoyed it. But it was not any kind of “retreat” or therapy or multi-day event.
Going down for a week to do it once or twice? Who knows, maybe he’ll find it enlightening. But a month with 10 sessions of a drug that is used rarely by the people whose culture it belongs to? That sounds like a terrible idea.
The described drug and its effects sound rather namby-pamby, certainly insufficient for attaining true introspection. Natives in Peru in the 19th century used Datura sanguinea (later reclassified as Brugmansia sanguinea) to prepare the drink Tonga, used to communicate with the spirits of one’s ancestors. A description* of its effects on one communicant:
“He was deathly pale…His eyes were now dry but had become bright red and rolled about wildly in their sockets and all his facial muscles were horribly contorted…A mass of sticky sweat covered his whole body which continued to be shaken by the most dreadful convulsions. His limbs were hideously contorted. He alternated between murmuring quietly and incomprehensibly and uttering loud, heart-rending shrieks, howling dully and moaning and groaning.”
No pain, no gain, they say.
*from “Brugmansias and Datura” by Ulrike and Hans-Georg Preissel.
Hallucinogenic cactus, plants and mushrooms were used to induce altered states of consciousness in healing rituals and religious ceremonies. The Maya drank balché (a mixture of honey and extracts of Lonchocarpus) in group ceremonies to achieve intoxication. Ritual enemas and other psychoactive substances were also used to induce states of trance. Olmec, Zapotec, Maya and Aztec used peyote, hallucinogenic mushrooms (teonanacatl: Psilocybe spp) and the seeds of ololiuhqui (Turbina corymbosa), that contain mescaline, psilocybin and lysergic acid amide, respectively. The skin of the toad Bufo spp contains bufotoxins with hallucinogenic properties, and was used since the Olmec period. Jimson weed (Datura stramonium), wild tobacco (Nicotiana rustica), water lily (Nymphaea ampla) and Salvia divinorum were used for their psychoactive effects. Mushroom stones dating from 3000 BC have been found in ritual contexts in Mesoamerica. Archaeological evidence of peyote use dates back to over 5000 years. Several chroniclers, mainly Fray Bernardino de Sahagún, described their effects in the sixteenth century.
Can’t really recommend smoking jimson weed, however: Symptoms are dose dependent and may include delirium, hallucinations, agitation, hyperthermia, tachycardia, hypertension, drying of skin and mucous membranes, thirst, nausea, vomiting, skin flushing, mydriasis, blurring of vision, urinary retention, seizures, coma, and in rare cases death.
Jimsonweed (Datura) should never be lumped in with stuff like mushrooms and acid. It is not a “psychedelic” as the word is commonly used i.e. something that gives you strictly mental effects with no physiological harm. Datura is a poisonous plant and it gets you fucked up mentally only because it’s also poisoning your body. No, I’ve never tried it, I’ve just seen all the horror stories on Erowid. Not on my list, ever.
I’d very strongly urge against ayahuasca retreats and that if one must, do it at home or some place away from those shamans.
Many other psychedelic experiences would be way better.
If it’s his first-ever time, I’d suggest he really start small and mild first. Do something like half a gram or one gram of dried shrooms in a quiet place with a trip sitter.