I forgot this part:
There are no quotation marks around the right to speak your mind in this country, nor is that right something that must be earned.
That said, the guy referenced in the OP is an asshole.
Did anyone else click on the link to his home page? He lists his accomplishments (he clearly peaked in high school, and is still upset that they erased the video of his interview with the school’s principals, past and present) and is a big fan of the Laura Ingalls Wilder books.
He’s just some kid looking for a cause, or an issue, or a fight. Or publicity.
And, mswas: “overseas they aren’t under the jurisdiction of any state”? On so many levels, friend, this is just wrong.
But mswas, you are 100% correct that if you aren’t in favor of the war, or don’t believe we should have an army (or an economy involved with the “military industrial complex”), you have no legal obligation to “support” the men and women who are in the armed forces. You’re right: they chose that career, and bless them, stuck with it even when they got sent overseas to do the world’s dirty work.
But there is no conflict between believing, on the one hand, that our military commitments overseas are ill-thought out and wrong, and believing, on the other hand, that our men and women in uniform should be supported as people, that we have compassion for the sacrifices that they are making because our duly-elected government has determined that it is in the best interest of our nation to send them overseas. Don’t like the decisions the government made? Get thee a new government. What? It’s not election time yet? Then guess what: part of this “oligarchy” is having to suck it up in those years when your guy loses and some other schmo is sitting in the control seat.
Moreover, however you feel about the war, there are myriad reasons why a person might sign up for the armed forces, none of them having a thing to do with the war, or with the motives ascribed to our soldiers by Mr. Crook.
And you, like Mr. Crook, can spout off your opinions, safely wrapped in the First Amendment. But your right to speak doesn’t include an obligation on my part to listen.
Do you even watch the news? There are lots of National Guard units serving in Iraq. If I’m not mistaken, many of the first people to go were in the Guard.
And Campion brings up a very good point: That not everybody who joins the military does so because they want to fight in a specific war. Hell, for every one troop you find who joined to serve their country, I can find you any number of people who joined because they couldn’t find work elsewhere. Or who couldn’t afford to finish college on their own.
Personally, I neither like the war in Iraq nor the people who started it. That doesn’t mean I won’t go if I get tapped to do so.
Aha.
Using the huge volume of outrage to get hits and publicity for his white supremacist crap. Supremacist “phishing.”
Great. I’m sorry I ever clicked on that link.
Black people love us!
Hey Amn D,
If, and that’s a big “if”, there are actually people out there that really think this (note, I’m taking that website with a grain of salt), I take pleasure in the fact that I can laugh at them if they came up to me in public. And can you. You, I, and apparently fushj00mang have earned the right to laugh at them.
There are people that loudly voice we shouldn’t be over there. There are people that are protesting in the streets to ‘end the war now!’. But they’re civil, and they are not disrespecting their own sons and daughters in the process of their disagreement. Unfortunately, the Internet is a big place, and every moron with some sort of typing skills can publish a web page, only to spout off for either hoax or what he or she believes to be a good cause. This is the price for what we try to maintain. And now that Jenaroph found a potential alterior motive, I’d hesitate to think this guy has the balls to say this to our face anyway.
My take on the OP: This website seems to be general jackassery, just trying to get a rise outta us. I’d say “fuck 'em” and mentally frag 'em.
Tripler
It oughtta be water off a duck’s back.
That was DMC that found that, FTR.
Remember in the Bell Curve of life, there needs to be a few people on the ass end of the Curve to define its very existence. Most Dopers are found on the other end of the Curve.
This Years Model: There are indeed quotation marks around ‘right’ with regards to free speech in this country, and indeed it is a ‘right’ that must be earned, daily. Slander is illegal. Racist and bigoted comments, while not illegal, are certanly not going to earn you any points with most Americans. Perhaps I should have said “some restrictions apply, void where prohibited” (as I’ve seen somewhere else on this board.) As for the earning of this ‘right,’ AmnDoors, Tripler, myself (hell, even Reeder) have gone out and earned it for you (unless you have or do serve in the military/foreign service, in which case I apologize for not putting you on the list.) That’s why I put the “you yourself” part on there. Sorry for the confusion.
PS: The op is indeed an asshole.
Hate the message, not the messenger. 
The subject of the OP would be the asshole, right?
Incorrect. I’m not quite sure what your rationale is, but my right to free speech as a United States citizen is not “earned” by you; nor has it been “earned” by you. You may be thinking of a privilege being granted, but if so, you’re still incorrect; free speech isn’t a privilege in this country, and it isn’t dependent on you. If anyone is said to be “earning” my right to free speech, it’s me every single time I excercise that right.
Having a military is part of the package of a country, but don’t operate under the assumption our Constitutional rights in this country stem from your service. They don’t. Each citizen contributes in some way to what defines this country, both good and bad; the military is an important part, but so is the citizenry. Our every day hard work greases Uncle Sam’s wheels just as much as your does, and I think it’d serve your interests to keep that in mind.
Oh shit, sorry op. I did indeed intend to pit the asshole and his website, not you.
SkipMagic: my rationale stems from Jefferson’s quote “The tree of liberty must be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants, else it will whither and die.” The freedoms and ‘rights’ (again, they are limited extensively by other legislation in the US, which ain’t necessairly a bad thing) granted by the Constitution were earned by soldiers long past and forgotten, and will be earned daily by soldiers not yet born. I’m not stating that civilians do not contribute, but the fundamental freedom itself would not exist if not for people willing to die for it (cuz folks out there would indeed take it from you if they could.)
PS: The website owner is still an asshole.
that works. But I intended D to mean “don’t”. Either way.
Just cause the hook’s got a worm doesn’t mean you should bite.
The freedoms and rights of the United States didn’t spring solely (or even mostly) from the military; instead, they came into being thanks to a combination those who had the foresight to put them to paper and law, the citizens who worked hard to keep this country going, and to our military strength. Yes, we’re a successful country due in part to our military, but that’s nowhere near the whole story. We’re a force in the world also due to our economic power, our educational system, our innovation, our ethics and the simple, day-to-day hard work of most everyone.
Again, you have earned no right for me, nor for anyone else. You’re simply part of the machine which powers this country. A ditch-digger “earns” his right to free speech on a daily basis just as much as you do: by being a United States citizen and taking part of the system.
I’m sorry, but I just don’t see how service in the Armed Forces automatically equates to “Protecting our Freedoms”.
What if I, a computer programmer, discover an algorithm that will radically increase computing power at no extra hardware cost, over all hardware platforms? I’d rightly be hailed as a hero. But if I just slug along and work equally as hard but don’t get that break through no fault of my own, I’d be looked at as just sucking out the resources and freedoms the Armed Forces have “bought” for me.
What if I were a doctor who discovered a breakthrough in medicine which greatly increased our expected lifespan and living quality? Should I not be looked at as providing more for your average American than those in the Armed Forces?
What if I were instead a politician who strove to expand and defend our legal freedoms? Would I not also contribute just as much to Americans’ freedoms as a current member of the Armed Forces?
Conversely, it you are a member of the Armed Forces, how exactly is service in a far off, windswept desert defending my freedom? If Iraq were to become a dictatorship again, suddenly I would no longer be able to post controversial posts on message boards? Really?
Don’t get me wrong, the military, like others have said, is certainly a vital, brave bulwark against invasion from other countries. But the numbers required to do this are low.
The numbers required to secure true American interests in the world are also pretty low, about as low as we have right now IMO. But I am under no impression that securing our economic interests somehow promotes civil liberties.
On the other hand, the armed forces have a capability to not only defend our own soil but the soil of other nations against the ravages of genocide. This, however, we do not do. The one thing that would actually increase our (as a global society) freedom is the one thing we do not do.
If troops signed up expecting to intervene in the next Rwanda, Bosnia, or Red Dawn, they are either duped or naive. While I have more support for them than I do the policymakers, certainly they had some idea that we wouldn’t be running around saving people from machetes all the time. If we were to regularly intervene in genocidal or natural disasters or foreign invasions, I would look up to members of the armed forces as heroes by default.
Don’t get me wrong, I supported the Afghan war and GWII (we in fact should have taken down Saddam after GW1). But equating service with actively raising the level of freedom in this country is far from axiomatic. In fact, it could be counterproductive, if our actions produce a political or military backlash against us.
SkipMagic, upon reflection, I must agree with your position. Citizens actively participating in government, expressing themselves, does indeed protect our ‘right’ to free speech from rotting internally in as much as the military and diplomatic services protect it from foreign agression. Anyway, I apologize for the hijack.
PS: The website guy remains an asshole.
Have you ever looked at a map? If I’m not mistaken, Iraq isn’t our own soil.
Oh really? So which state would they pay taxes to when stationed overseas? I WAS talking about tax issues if you do recall.
I disagree with this line of logic. If our elected representatives ask us to do something that is morally reprehensible then we should not do it. I don’t think that this is just a matter of sucking it up because my guy lost, my guy was never even put on the ballot at any time in my life. If the government makes a decision that they want me to execute, then it is my responsibility whether I execute it or not. They share the responsibility, but they don’t alleviate it from my shoulders. The government asks it’s officers to do reprehensible shit all the time, from killing Iraqis in THEIR homeland, to arresting people for selling drugs. I am tired of the culture of absolved responsibility saying “Well we have a democracy, and this is the way democracy works.”, well democracy clearly doesn’t work, and I don’t believe that any person is absolved from their actions just because the government told them to do it. There are plenty of options other than joining the military, if that’s the path they chose that’s fine, but if they are going to address the subject in my presence, it’s important for them to know that they unequivocably ARE NOT FIGHTING FOR ME. They are doing me no favors, and don’t expect me to thank them, because I think that my country is worse off because of it. I’ll take the more expensive gasoline thank you very much. If it weren’t for guys like these, then Iran would be a democracy for the past 40 years. They aren’t bringing democracy anywhere, all they are doing is bringing tyranny and fast food joints. So while individually I hold them no ill will, I certainly don’t support what they are doing in any way shape or form, and if they were following MY will, they would be at home with their families, friends, on the road hitchhiking to find themselves or whatever. I am tired of the excuse that young men who can’t find themselves find themselves by joining a machine that kills people more efficiently than anything in history. Congratufuckinglations on your find.
fushj00mang: In my opinion your fighting is actually hurting America. It props up and legitimizes a regime that passes bills like the USA Patriot act. I don’t think you are doing anything to defend my freedom of speech. You are a member of the single most detrimental military force in the world to my freedom of speech. You are the strong arm that would be turned against me if I excercised my freedom of speech too liberally. I don’t think you’re doing me any favors at all. In fact I think you’re hurting me, I think what you are doing is bad for me and bad for my family and bad for my country, and bad for my race as a whole. I think you are personally responsible. But I want you to understand, this doesn’t mean I would spit in your face as a returning soldier, it doesn’t mean I wouldn’t listen to your war stories if you told them to me, it doesn’t mean that I would hate you in any way shape or form. I just strongly disagree with your actions, and I want you to know that my freedom of speech and your actions are in no way related. The thing I know is that I’ll go to my grave speaking my mind, and another thing I believe, is that if I am killed for doing it, it will be by someone like you following orders from the United States Government.
Al Qaeda never wanted to stop me from having the freedom of speech. They wanted to stop YOU from rolling tanks through the middle east, and the only way they could think of was to crush the US economy.
Erek