The only ones taking my rights away are the Federal Government with the USA Patriot act, the Drug War, and the New York City government that tries to quash assembly.
Until they join the FBI, DEA, ATF, Department of Homeland Security of course. You might not join any of those organizations, but do you think that no one you’ve worked directly will?
Not I
Well, I don’t feel in danger right now, but if my opinion ever did become important enough to actually be represented in this ‘democracy’ then I might have something to worry about. Not being important enough to have a voice can be a perk sometimes. Doesn’t mean I can’t still be locked up. I mean I’m not as important as my friend Ryan Clancy after all, so I don’t have a whole lot to worry about. That’s what you are defending, the administration that does things like that. You are in no way defending my freedom of speech. I hang out with Muslims here in New York, they haven’t tried to stop me from saying what I want.
So the CIA didn’t train Bin Laden? The US doesn’t have military bases in Saudi Arabia? The US doesn’t give billions to Saudi Arabia and Israel in money and arms so that THEY can have tanks rolling through the middle east? They aren’t building military bases along the pipeline route? They aren’t trying to box Iran which is the most powerful muslim country that isn’t a US puppet regime, in? They didn’t topple a democratic government in Iran and install the Shah? Bill Clinton didn’t fire Tomahawks trying to kill Bin Laden?
Sorry, I was using tanks figuratively. And you do have a choice.
And I don’t hate America, I love America, that’s why I am against the troops. Your will is your own, I don’t care if your indenture has you required to do things you don’t want to do. Trust me you have my sympathy, I almost joined the Navy at one point.
I’m sorry if you took an oath, but every step of the way, you executed your own free will, and it’s still free. In my opinion you are not defending me. The only enemy of my rights is the Bush administration. And I am not saying this as a Republican/Democrat thing. I would rather see someone like John McCain as president than either Bush or Kerry. It’s not about that at all. The Bush administration are not Americans. They are part of the global aristocracy, and if America suddenly lost power, they would find a way to consolidate their power without America, and could care less about the American people. That’s who you are defending. You’re defending a Connecticut frat boy that pretends to be a Texas cowboy. I’d be a lot more confident if he actually WAS a Texas cowboy. This entire administration is one of lies. You’ve been mislead and the choice to continue to be mislead is yours. If you think what you are doing is important enough to keep doing it, go ahead and keep doing it, but don’t act like your actions are in some way altruistic, because we aren’t threatened.
I don’t know many New Yorkers that actually buy into this war, and New York was the one civilian target hit.
If the Bush administration actually manages to get some settlers out of Gaza, then maybe it won’t be a total wash, but from where I’m sitting, I see the Bush administration consolidating the power of a rich and powerful elite while sucking both America and Iraq dry. I hope I’m wrong, and you usher in a new era of peace, because if you do, I will apologize and thank you, but if I’m right you’re going to come home and watch this country crumble before your eyes.
My friend Tarik (Arab) is terrified of the US government. He’s a US citizen, he was born here, he has an American accent, grew up doing a lot of the same things I did growing up, and he’s fucking terrified, and that ain’t right. I think the fault is every person’s in this country who doesn’t know jack shit about their representation, that allowed seats to run unopposed in local elections. So the fault is everyone’s. That much is true.
I am sick of what America is being turned into, and you ARE NOT defending freedom in any way shape or form. You are subjugating an oil rich nation for an aristocratic global elite. That’s not what America was sold to me as when I was a kid. My enemy is a four hour drive from me, not a 24 hour flight.
There may very well be a lot of muslims that want to take away my right to free speech, but none of them have that capability, and without American troops shooting at muslims, the general populace just wouldn’t care that America is different from them. Bin Laden is no different. You are legitimizing Bin Laden, without you, he’d have nothing. From what I saw in the news, fundamentalist Islam was waning. In Iran some ridiculous portion of the populace is under 30, and there is a massive movement away from the Mullahs. They were having big street protests, millions of kids, before 9/11 and America using that excuse to ‘Manifest Destiny’. Reza Eslan shares this opinion.
I am sick of what America is turning into, and I understand that you have a problem with the war in Iraq. But understand one thing: I DO NOT GET TO CHOOSE. I was told that what we were doing to start with was good and right and true. Maybe in some ways it still is, but for the most part we were sold a bill of goods.
Regardless, that does not allow me the luxury of disobedience. It is in this way that we maintain strength within ourselves and our respective services for the next war, the one that you approve of. Right now we’re playing out the string over there, doing our best in a bad situation, and trying to keep it together. Even that is becoming difficult as the recruitment and retention level is way down. But we have to do it, otherwise when it comes time to defend your house there’s something and someone left to do it.
So perhaps you want to ease back on the rhetoric. I understand that you’re angry over Iraq, but your hatred and fury with the military is unjustified and misplaced.
You are fighting for the world Aristocracy. The Bushes and Al Sauds and for Israel.
Right, I thought the National Guard were there to defend us at home, not to be offensive forces. Thanks for illuminating that for me.
I don’t take any money from the government. I never have. I was talking about supporting myself based upon trading favors for favors. I made enough money to feed myself and such. I’ve been lucky, and I know that unless I want to go live in the woods, I am complicit with the system. The problem with this, is that I am not against the system in and of itself. I am only against the Drug War and the War on Terror. So if I were to stop paying taxes, I would stop paying for Fire Fighters, Police, Roads and such. So that’s not exactly the same as pulling the trigger each time.
I have a fairly large network of people I know all over the country, when I go places I don’t have to pay for hotels, I stay with friends. That’s how I manage to live on the cheap. It has nothing to do with welfare. I help my friends make money and then they benefit me in some way, or I help them with a project and I get fed etc…
I’m sorry if that makes me an asshole. I just wanted to point out reasons why I don’t support the troops.
Every person is responsible for their own actions, there is no power on Earth that can absolve them of that.
What part of the Patriot Act has limited YOUR civil liberties? C’mon, tell me. Give me a line, and YOUR personal experience.
So, the halting of espionage, kidnapping, money laundering, the illicit drug trade, illegal firearms trade, and illegal border crossings violates your civil liberties? Jesus, I didn’t know that the USA had become so open to everything!
Bullshit.
So, you state that someone who has violated a federal law should NOT be punished? I mean, there is a standing order to NOT go somewhere and your buddy violated it. Does that mean that he is NOT responsable for his own action? Are you saying that this law does NOT apply to him?
Touche on Bin Laden’s first trainers. We used him as an ally in the 80’s to fight the Soviet Union (remember those guys? Committers of genocide in Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Kazakstan, Turkmenistan. Outlawed Islam (and all other religions) under pain of death? Gee, looks like we got help from someone with (at the time) the same goal.) Our forces in the Saudi Kingdom are there at the request of the Protector Of The Two Shrines, His Majesty Crowned Prince Khalid bin Sultan. As far as Israel, remember that the US is in the business of spreading and potecting democracy wherever it may grow (please note that the only democracies in the Middle East are 1: Israel, 2: Iraq.) As far as US bases along pipeline routes in Saudi, um…no. There aren’t any. We’ve a force at KKMC, outside of the capitol, a larger force in Qatar, a larger force in Kuwait, and a very large force in Iraq. There ain’t much in Saudi. Hell, in Saudi (pre 2002) there were under 10,000 US soldiers. As far as trying to kill Bin Laden…well, why the hell not? He likes people being killed despite the fact that they did nothing to him. So, I hope he does die. Slowly and painfully (preferably with a piece of pork on his person) and that he is buried facing away from Mecca, with his face down, and a tatoo on him (just to be sure that he goes straight to hell.)
I went to Iraq in November of '03. I got back to the States this past March 1. During that time, I helped clear minefields, helped protect civilians, tap wells, train cops, and provide security at a school outside of Sadir City which was used as a polling place. I wanted to do that. It was a great experience. You should try it sometime (helping others, that is.)
I’m not sorry I took the oath. In fact, I just re-upped. And indeed my actions aren’t totally selfless. Doesn’t change the fact that the Armed Forces do more good worldwide every fucking day than any single whiny shit (such as yourself) will do in a lifetime of being a whiny shit.
Doesn’t matter how many do. We still fight for them too.
This country ain’t crumbling. You see this as a ‘bad time’ because of a law which doesn’t actually have an effect on you. Let’s look back to the times of J. Edgar Hoover, or Senator Joe McCarthy. How about the Jim Crowe era? Those were ‘bad times’ and we’ve gone past that.
But WHY is he afraid? Is he doing something illegal, or is he just a chickenshit? Because in the first case, then he should be afraid, and in the second, he shouldn’t.
I agree, but that’s also an American situation. You can’t force someone to run if they don’t care.
Again, I subjugated nobody. I was wounded on January 30, after being hit by a grenade fragment which came from what we thought (but ended up not being) a suicide bomber. The Iraqi police squad which was with us put no fewer than 100 bullets into him. Two of my brothers (as many of us now see our Iraqi counterparts) were killed by that one animal. Don’t tell me I’m subjugating anyone. Over 17,000 have shed blood (being killed or wounded) to bring freedom to Iraq.
I don’t hate you personally, I don’t hate any of the soldiers. I am angry, most definitely. I just wanted to show that I can’t support someone fighting like that.
The difference here is simple. If my home needed defending, I’d be fighting next to you. This country has more guns than people, I would get my hands on one at the first sign of invasion. And believe it or not I’d have a sizable militia to back me up.
I understand that you don’t get to choose, but what happens to the world in the meantime while you’re out there riding rough shod over muslim civilians in order to maintain strength for a magical time when the politicians will actually care about people not of their economic class? I’m afraid this could turn into a global civil war. The truth is, we don’t really have any enemies abroad. All of our potential enemies are scared shitless. Every enemy we have that is posturing against us, is doing it because they are scared. North Korea wants us to think they have lots of nukes so that we will not attack them out of our interest in not seeing Tokyo or Los Angeles go up in flames. By going to war, we’re playing into Bin Laden’s plan. Make no mistake the terrorists are winning. They wanted us to be in terror, and we are.
No one is on in the world is on the Imperial March but us. There is no enemy, we’re chasing phantoms. Instead of intimidating Iran, we could be working with Iran’s help to change things in Darfur. I believe change in Iran would happen much more quickly if we were working with them, rather than entrenching them with a siege mentality.
With all due respect, this is part of the problem.
“I was just following orders” is not a valid defense.
Pointing out that one doesn’t have a choice in the orders they follow doesn’t mean that those orders are right, or that obeying them is moral. Sometimes the only moral thing to do is lay down your rifle and take your punishment.
Just as an addendum, I’m not saying that the current conflict in Iraq is Nazi-esque, or anything like that. But the fact remains that ‘following orders’ is not a screen against moral condemnation.
It’s more insidious than that, it is a general, pervasive fear. Also, did you check my link about Ryan Clancy? He’s someone I know personally. No men in black have come to see me. It divides liberals by creating a dividing line between the ‘activist revolutionaries’ and the liberals actually working in government. Most Civil Servants I know are EXTREMELY careful about what they become associated with. It’s difficult to get a permit to stage a protest in New York a lot of the time.
Yes, the stopping of the illicit drug trade does violate my civil liberties, but that’s been going on the whole time. I have friends who sell drugs to people who want to purchase them. That’s a violation.
There are police organizations for that, we don’t need to spend billions on a military for that. Also, my buddy that violated it is one of only a couple out of a few hundred that is being prosecuted. They only went after the people who came back and said “the Iraqi people do not want to be invaded.”, also the sanctions violate civil liberties to begin with. The government shouldn’t have carte blanche to do what they like. He is responsible for his actions yes, but the government coming after him is just plain WRONG. IMO.
Iraq is not a Democracy it’s an occupied territory. You are a member of the occupying force. You can’t FORCE democracy on someone. It’s supposed to be about the right to CHOOSE, remember? Hate Bin Laden all you want, you won’t get any argument from me. I just hope that you realize that America has overthrown democracies that have not suited it’s goals.
Armenia: Republic
Azerbaijan: Republic
Egypt: Republic
Iran: Theocratic Republic
Iraq: none; note - the Iraqi Interim Government (IG) was appointed on 1 June 2004
Kyrgyzstan: Republic
Lebanon: Republic
Pakistan: Federal republic
Syria republic under military regime since March 1963
Turkey republican parliamentary democracy
Tunisia republic
Yemen republic
United States Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition
United Kingdom constitutional monarchy
I included some countries from North Africa that are nominally the middle east. I left out Constitutional Monarchies out even though the UK is a constitutional monarchy. I also left out some military republics.
Democracy is a fiction. It has never existed anywhere. Getting into the nuance of authoritarian republics is probably another thread.
You make the assumption that I don’t help others. I don’t need to join the military to do it. And if you’ll recall from my friend Ryan Clancy’s experience, it’s illegal for Americans who aren’t in the military to help others in Iraq. Also, I do think that aspect of what you do is pretty fucking cool. So I give you props on that. That’s awesome.
I only laid into you because you made that comment about earning the right to speak freely, and I took issue with it.
I think the armed forces are a double edged sword. I don’t think I’ll agree with you on that one. And you are whining every bit as much as I am. Just to point out the obvious for you. And you’re right a group of millions does more than any one person, that’s very true. If I were part of an organization of millions with billions of dollars of funding, that would be untrue. So your comparison is worthless. Just so you know, I work with a lot of organizations locally building a community here. On tap for this summer is to help train a lot of people that throw events regularly in First Aid and CPR. This is in addition to building up my ISP that will not pull the plug on websites deemed inappropriate by whomever just because we are told to. I have an event production company that is represented in both New York and Chicago. We use these events to bring communities together, to promote people’s art, to network giving us better prospects for the future. One of my associates is working on the Freedom Tower Parade. I’m working on launching a non-partisan political webzine that’s dedicated to showing people how the system works, and demystifying the process by which the system runs, hopefully this will give people a better understanding how to interface with this system in order to better represent themselves within it.
Well then I hope I’m wrong about what you’re doing. I am very cynical about this country actually bringing democracy to the world. I do put up. I put up to you just now. Telling you how I feel is putting up. Most of the work I do is completely unpaid. I even tend to lose what little money I do have doing work for my community. You clearly believe in what you’re doing, and that’s fine. I just hope you realize that the only thing threatening my freedom of anything is the US government.
The USA Patriot Act does affect me. I know people like Ryan who are affected by this, and I know of people who my friends know that have been put in jail because of the USA Patriot Act, and I know a lot of people who are afraid to act because of it, and maybe they are chicken shits. Maybe you’re right, but I don’t think they should have to be ‘brave’ against the government. You’re right, this country never was free, and I don’t even know if I believe in the idea of freedom, but I think that the Bill of Rights are solid, and should be abided by, and I think the USA Patriot Act is a direct violation of those rights. Whether I have been hurt directly or indirectly by it is irrelevant. It’s mere existance is offensive.
I was offended when I heard that they shut down Moqtada al Sadr’s paper. If we want to teach democracy, we need to teach democracy. Freedom of Speech and the press is the first and foremost ideal for a healthy democracy. I don’t care WHAT he is saying.
I’m sorry your friends got killed, and I’m sorry if I laid into you too much. You are doing a lot of cool things in the midst of a lot of shittiness. Good luck to you, I hope it works out the way you want it to. I’ll support you in building schools and infrastructure, so in that way, I support you wholeheartedly, and I support the troops. However, don’t think you are defending my freedom of speech, because it’s only threat is domestic. I have the freedom of speech because I have the freedom of speech, your actions have nothing to do with it. I’d have the freedom of speech standing in Mecca as well. I might not have the freedom to continue to live if I said the wrong thing, but I’d still have the freedom of speech.
I am an American wholly and completely, moving to another country won’t change that fact.
As the primary thread pertaining to support of the troops I thought this would be the best place to put this. There are in fact some groups who do not support the troops.
That’s an outright lie, and you really ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Opponents of this amendment were not voting against it because they opposed armored Humvees, as you implied. They voted against it because production of those armored Humvees had already been requisitioned, and in fact 266 more vehicles had been funded than the Army had requested.
Now, it may well be that more vehicles were needed, and that’s a fair position to take. But to say that people who voted against the amendment don’t support the troops is just pure ignorance.
So what you are saying is, they actually voted for the Humvees before they voted *against * them. Well, that changes everything, if you are a Republican.
No, what I’m saying is they already bought and built a whole bunch of armored Humvees. This vote was to build more of them, not a vote to build them in the first damn place.
About that last point, reasonable people can disagree - it is just a discussion about numbers. About the first, there really can be no reasonable discussion. Just about everybody agrees that modifications neded to be made to the Humvee, and made quickly.
In any case, I don’t think a vote either way should be characterized as standing for or against the troops, since the quantity of Humvees being produced will be more than the original Army request in any case, either by a lot or a little.
Lots of the Republicans on that list are pretty moderate and reasonable folk, especially on defense matters. Warner, Voinovich and Dole aren’t raving ideologues, are they? And Senator Inouye, also on that list, is a moderate, pro-defense Democrat and a Medal of Honor recipient.
Does anyone here want to say he doesn’t support the troops?
Then why, oh why, doesn’t the military dispose of Bush?
He clearly tries to trample and/or “amend” the constitution as he sees fit.
He is using the powers of state against his own citizenry.
People are being interrogated because of things they say on message-boards.
People are being held without fair trials.
Bush’s removal through the impeachment process would still leave us with Dick Cheney. Go read The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy (actually, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe). At least in the case of the current administration, the purpose of the Presidency is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it.