What "Conservative Values" aren't based on bigotry?

Great Debates
281

It isn’t even clear that her statement was anti-Semitic. However, if offense was taken, appropriately or not, apologies are in order.

He has made it clear, and his supporters have made it clear by supporting him, that he considers apologizing when in the wrong to be a sign of weakness, not strength, amazingly.

Steve King, right? Unless he lost his rank when he lost his committee assignments.

282

What is “fair” about taking more of a high income earners money than a low?

Go on, define your terms

283

Quite possibly I’d be on board with it if it didn’t bankrupt the country and got funded in a fair way sure!

284

No, I meant this guy, who I absolutely knew existed before I Googled him just now, and is probably absolutely awful in some way that I don’t have time to explain right now.

But that Steve King guy is a dick, too.

285

We gave a trillion and a half dollars to millionaires and billionaires a few months ago, didn’t bankrupt us then. We can just take that money back, revert to a pre-2018 tax environment, and pay off that college loan debt and be exactly where we are today. Sound good?

286

Clearly not, it seems that it is hard to face the reality that you are not noticing when racism is the issue, what it does not parse is your attempt at ignoring that telling someone to leave America comes as racist in context, what you trying to equate to is about about a person that does not tell the “offended” party to leave America or tell others to undermine her “targets”.

287

I was thinking of something else. I stand corrected. Yes, that was racist of you. Congratulations.

Race baiting and pandering from the left. That’s one answer. I’ll give the next when you ask me again 2 seconds.

Answer #2. Why do you assume it has anything to do with race? This is just bad bad logic. Bad assumptions.

Let’s follow through with your logic and see where this gets you.

Blacks and Hispanics are disproportionately represented in the Democratic Party. They are also disproportionately represented in the prison system being incarcerated for violent crimes, including rape and murder. Therefore, the Democratic Party is the party of rape and murder.

Do you agree with this argument? That’s your fucking argument, that’s your logic.

I don’t.

I agree. The left is focused on race and gender and sexual preference and trying to breed dissent for political gain instead of just living and progressing and getting along. There is no comparison. It’s disgusting.

All of it. Yes (log cabin Republicans, etc.) yes(and Democrats.) No, but not by much.

Context of your quote suggested to me you were referring to a Federal Constitutional change. Simple misunderstanding.

Miscommunication. It looked to me like you were talking about the attempt to make a Federal amendment.

Anyhow. I’ve been a supporter of Gay marriage since before it was a thing. I don’t think government should be in the marriage business at all. To the extent that it is, there is not a single good reason to withhold the privileges of marriage from gays. I convinced abricker to change his stance on this subject way back when.

But you know what? This makes me happy. I don’t see it as a Republican/Democrat thing. It’s an ignorant/non ignorant religious/non religious thing. The party lines on this issue are incidental.

I think it’s Xenophobic at best, racially tinged and arguably racist. It was a terrible statement. I don’t defend it. But no. I don’t think Trump is a racist. I think Omar is a true blue anti Semite.

I’m a total hypocrite. Before I dive into the mudfight, I like to stand there, all clean and point out how covered in filthy everybody else is.

Anyhow. I am going to stop here because I think this a stupid debate. I knew better when I started. I’ve been in this same debate too many times to think anybody participating is capable of moving off the “other guy…bad!” Platform

288

This doesn’t parse was saying that I could not actually make sense or understand what you were saying

289

First, I never said either side is or has ever been terribly consistent. In theory, this would definitely fall under the ‘freedom from government interference’ concept.

But in practice, that concept is usually overridden by the idea that locals should be able to determine their own laws, and the notion that somehow, gay marriage is infringing on someone else’s religious rights.

Second, it’s not symbolic logic. Pointing out an inconsistency doesn’t invalidate the whole concept.

290

[/snip]

You better, because, after so many years of claiming plausibly that Republicans in power were not racists the Republicans in congress are thinking now that running with the idiot ball makes sense.

291

You’re wrong. We didn’t give them anything, it was theirs to start with.

292

You’ve only addressed the first part of my question…

You said your objection was based on permanent versus temporary assistance. Are you opposed to the permanent assistance suggested in the second half of that question, which I’ve quoted again in this post?

293

If you fight fire with Fire pretty soon everything is on fire.

One of the problems with the adversarial political system is that when a question comes up to be answered one needs to ask “who is asking this question?”

For example, we’re Donald Trump’s tweets xenophobic at best and racially tinged? Are they Morally wrong and abhorrent? If one were to answer “yes,” than of course the next follow question, isn’t this thing and that other thing he said also along those lines, so isn’t he in fact a racist, and since the Republicans support them and Republicans have done all these other things that are racist, aren’t republicans generally racist? How can you support racism? You should vote Democrat.

If you defend it, or refuse to engage it, or try to argue that it’s not bad, than your questioner can’t go do down that road, so it’s best never to admit that you or your side ever does anything wrong.

But, the bottom line is that if you wish to be a person you need to call these things out when it happens on your side. If you don’t you are just another hack. I am very much against the left these days. I think the divisive identity politics game they are playing is cynical unadulterated racism, despicable from top to bottom. I think the Democrats are hypocritical and in bad faith in their accusations of racism to such a degree that they can safely be ignored.

I think Ilhan has shown herself to be a radical antisemite, time and time again. Even today she put forth a resolution to support BDS an organization that Nancy Pelosi publically recognized as blatantly and openly anti-Semitic.
I think it is shameful of the Democrats not to hold her account, to defend her, I think the resolution that they made a month or so ago to condemn hate in general rather than to specifically recognize the anti Semitic sentiments was an act of pure political cowardice.

She is a duly elected member of Congress, and she is a citizen and we dont Deport citizens because we don’t like what they say, no matter how vile. Trump’s tweets were wrong. That chanting was an ugly moment. Trump could have and should have rebuked the crowd. I have found his character to be disgusting since before he was elected.

294

Which is why I don’t need care about people who want to do it to me.

The system doesn’t protect me. The system is an aggressor towards me and many others. Please do more research on all of the peaceful imprisoned people the system is protecting.

295

Once again your bookmarked citation doesn’t quite fit. Good effort though.

296

Irrelevant retort too.

297

Right, so, we’re back at, “Pointing out the racism of the right makes you the REAL racist?”

Cool, cool.

Ah, so the reason 90% of black people vote Democrat is that most black people are stupid enough to fall for our pandering and race baiting? Interesting take! We must be super-good at it, to convince them to vote for the most racist party in America!

Weird how we seem to be so bad at it in other areas, though, doesn’t it? It’s like, we’re really good at pulling the wool over the eyes of blacks and queers, but somehow, can’t quite pull it off with all the white folk. You’d almost have to think that white people are just inherently smarter - I mean, if we’re taking your assertion here at face value, of course.

That’s not the logic I used to reach the conclusion that the Republican party is deeply, deeply racist. The logic I used to reach that conclusion was looking at the policies they support, the candidates they vote for, and the things they actually say.

And, again, the political polarization among blacks isn’t just “disproportionate.” Ninety percent of black people vote Democrat. Ninety! You can’t honestly believe that none of that represents problems with race in the Republican party!

It’s 100% a response to Republican aggression. There’s nothing inherent in being gay that makes you support a social safety net, or a progressive tax rate. There’s tons and tons of gays that would love to vote for a fiscally conservative party. Most of them still vote Democrat, because the Republican hostility toward queer people is relentless. Opposition to civil rights for gays is literally a plank in the Republican platform.

The same goes for being black, or Hispanic, or Muslim. Again, the party of Lincoln can’t get black voters. A hundred years ago, that wasn’t the case: in much of the country, it was literally the opposite. How did the Republican party lose the support of African Americans so completely? How can you be so absolutely, completely certain that it has nothing at all to do with Republican attitudes towards minorities?

Muslims and Hispanics tend to come from cultures that are hugely conservative. More Hispanics Catholics would rather vote for Democratic baby-killers than the pro-life party. How are Republicans bungling representation there so badly, given that they’re so clearly the more racially progressive party?

Log Cabin Republicans, eh? Great guys, great guys. Hey, remember when they donated a grand to Bob Dole’s campaign, and he returned it? Republican hatred of gays is so deep seated that it can get a politician to give back money. How many of them are there, anyway? How many of them hold elected office as Republicans? Do you know how many gay Republicans sought office in 2018? Turns out zero! This represents a staggering drop from 2016, when there were three. Democrats, of course, had upwards of 20, in addition to the seven openly gay members already in Congress. The Republicans, by contrast, have never elected an openly gay candidate. What queer representative they do have, came out after they were elected - usually involuntarily after they were caught in some sort of sex scandal.

But I’m sure the total lack of queer Republican candidates has nothing to do with official Republican party policy towards gay rights.

Meanwhile, Democrats are running the first openly LGBT presidential candidate, ever, and the main concern about him is that he’s inexperienced. Democrats champion laws that protect the rights and safety of queer people - Republicans oppose those laws across the board, naturally. We’re putting trans people in statehouses - Republicans are kicking them out of the military and are trying to legislate where they’re allowed to pee. Obama passed a lot of protections for gay people through executive order - he could do it legislatively because of Republican obstruction, which meant that there was nothing stopping the next Republican president from reversing those orders once in office. Which, of course, Trump did.

But yeah, the two parties are basically the same when it comes to gay rights.

Totally understandable. I mean, I literally said “in their states” right there, but okay.

I’d actually forgotten about the federal amendment to ban gay marriage that Mitt Romney ran on. Thanks for the reminder! Doesn’t do wonders for your argument that, as recently as 2012, the presumptive leader of the Republican party was campaigning to establish anti-gay bigotry in the highest law of the land, though. Or are you going to explain to me how opposition to gay marriage isn’t related to prejudice against gay people?

That’s genuinely great. Good for you, and I mean that entirely without sarcasm. But the issue isn’t you, it’s the Republican party, and the American right in general.

And that’s just plain ignorant. The political division on this issue is as stark as you could ask for. (Well, not as stark as the political division among African Americans, and you’re already ignoring that, so…) 71% of solid democrats support SSM. Only 37% of Republicans support it. Both numbers get better when you include people who “lean” one way or the other, but Republicans still don’t crack 50%. And even among Republicans who things SSM is okay, opposition to it still isn’t enough to hurt a Republican candidates chances of being elected.

So, Omar criticizing Israel is enough for you to label her a “true blue” (cute) anti-Semite, but you’re still not convinced that Trump is a racist, despite… well, take your pick. The wall? Attacking that judge for being of Mexican descent? “Shithole” countries? The Muslim ban? The attacks on Ocasio-Cortez and other Democrats of color? That time he was literally convicted in court of racial discrimination?

At least you’re open about your double standard.

298

Stark difference between the Scylla of 2000 and the Scylla of today. The 2000 version would never have defended this kind of right-wing bigotry, period. I’m sad to say that no, the Scylla of 2019 is NOT better than this.

299

  1. What exactly am I defending? I have gone out of my way to point out how poorly I feel about Trump’s comments and the chants last night.

  2. Really? You are going to show up in a thread that is jus naked Republican bashing, ignore everything else has said and chastise me for defending… what am I defending.

  3. My whole point is that this self-congratulatory better than them, aren’t the other guys immoral and bad, ignores the failings of the left in this same regard. Go point out how Ilhan Omar’s anti-semitism and the Democrats’ defense of it is reprehensible. Go denounce the Antifa attack on a journalist, their takeover of Oregon, their bombing of a detention center filled with immigrants. Say something about the absurd number of specious accusations being bandied about by the left as race baiting and pandering, congratulate the Republicans for kicking King off the commute assignments. In short, show that you actually have an even standard that you are applying consistently and not just when it is convenient politically, and then maybe I will take your chastisement of me as worthy of considering.

300

You’ve continually ignored how Democratic officials have handled misconduct (whether bigoted statements by one of their members or mistreatment of women) orders of magnitude better than Republicans. Omar recognized her mistake and apologized for it, after heavy criticism from her fellow Democrats. Trump has never recognized his bigoted statements or apologized for them, and almost every Republican official has continually defended him and his bigoted statements. Democrats have actually booted their own abusers of women (in the last few years – before that, they were as bad as Republicans), Republicans elevate and celebrate Trump.

The Democrats are very far from perfect, but they are orders of magnitude superior, morally speaking, than the Republican party in the present. Democrats condemn and expel abusers of women; Republicans elevate and celebrate them. Democrats generally chastise and apologize for bigotry within their ranks; Republicans generally defend and rationalize bigotry within their ranks.

Your characterization of the parties is highly inaccurate.