Dude, stop being disingenuous. You’re arguing in bad faith here.
NO ONE in the USA is arguing in favor of a managed system. Not one of the people you call Socialists is arguing in favor of a Soviet style managed economy. It isn’t happening, we aren’t calling for it, “socialists” aren’t calling for it and belaboring this point and persistently claiming that Socialists in America want this is blatantly, disingenuously FALSE.
Guess what, no he doesn’t. Notice that “Republican” is a different word than “conservative”. Even if he self declares as conservative, it’s not like the ideology is monolithic. Flavors abound on the left and right.
This is basically the whole point of my participation in the thread. Pointing out other non conservatives declaring what conservatism is just doesn’t work - especially when most insist on caricatures. It’s quite absurd.
Thank you.
Why are you the only one? Any ideas? It’s actually depressing.
Well, nowadays Conservatives want to claim the Republican party for themselves and have largely driven out the moderates and other non-Conservatives by claiming that only Conservatives are True Republicans.
So it isn’t surprising to hear people claim that the terms Republican and Conservative are synonymous. Because the far right conservatives have worked hard to make it that way.
I have my strong doubts that anyone at this point could gain the Republican nomination while calling themselves something other than a Conservative.
But per Bone, what a Conservative actually is, is a different story. Every group of two people has three or more opinions and ideas of what their group actually is.
The father of modern conservatism, Barry Goldwater, wrote a book. He was the man who integrated the army, and fought for gay rights long before it became fashionable.
Have you read his book?
Referencing the actual actions and policies of people who claim to be conservatives and who are voted for and supported by people who claim to be conservatives is not insisting on ‘caricatures’, it’s basing observations of evidence. Conservatives are happy to cheer on Trump and the Republican party for promoting a conservative agenda and vote to keep them in power, but somehow think it’s “bigoted” or a “caricature” to use examples of what they and the people they put into power actually do on a routine basis. The US of post-2016 has made it more and more clear what conservatives as a block are and exactly what they stand for, and it’s not pretty.
What’s absurd is claiming that it’s “bigoted” to judge people based on their actions, or that it’s “bad faith” to base arguments on real world evidence instead of some weird “I think I’m a nice person so therefore I can’t be bad” philosophy. And it’s counter to how conservatives in my experience have always portrayed themselves; judging people for their actions has always been a point of pride, and being realists who deal with the messy real world instead of pie-in-the-sky idealistic liberals is another. Neither of those former conservative values seem to be in evidence anymore, of course.
What percentage of Conservatives do you believe have read this book?
I’m not a Conservative. Of course I haven’t read it.
So, what is it you actually know about conservatism?
If you are basing conservatism off of Trump, Trump has spent 60 years as a Democrat. 4, maybe 5 as a Republican.
So, if you are going to judge a political philosophy be his behavior, the philosophy you judge should be liberalism, right?
I mean, that is why we have him, you know? McCain, was a bigot, Nazi, Romney was a bigot nazi, GW Bush was a bigot nazi.
So, we slapped a layer of paint on a Democrat scumbag and ran him.
If you wish to judge a political philosophy by the failings of Trump, that philosophy should be the Democratic one.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that that falls within the small-c definition at the same time that a very large majority of self-described American conservatives support Trump.
I judge modern conservatism in the US by the actions and rhetoric of most self-described conservatives. That’s reasonable, right?
Most of them support Trump, and most of them continually excuse, rationalize, and even celebrate his bigoted, misogynistic, and hateful words and actions.
Modern liberals and progressives overwhelmingly strongly opposes Trump.
It’s reasonable to judge modern conservatism and liberalism by the words and actions of modern conservatives and liberals.
No. It’s actually not reasonable, or intelligent, or rational. You judge an argument by the argument, not by the person making it. That is pretty much the Prime rule of intelligent discussion.
Words are defined by usage. Right now, most conservatives support Trump. In the present, “conservatism” is associated with support for Trump. You might have a different definition, and that’s fine. But most conservatives believe that supporting Trump is conservative. That means that supporting Trump, in the present, is within the definition of “conservative”.
Just semantics, perhaps. But over time, this is how language works. It’s reasonable to judge modern conservatives by the words and actions of modern conservatives. And it’s reasonable to judge modern conservative arguments (which includes why conservatives argue that supporting Trump is necessary and necessarily conservative) by the merits of those arguments – and the arguments most conservatives use for supporting Trump are generally immoral, illogical, ignorant, and worse.
You guys are spouting nonsense. The Republican party is the conservative party in American politics. Conservatives themselves have spend decades trying to build up this idea (and the reverse idea that the Democrats are the liberal party).
The conservative movement and the Republican party are going to sink and swim together in 2020 - and that means Donald Trump will be your candidate.
…and as I pointed out, Trump was a Democrat for 60 years, A Republican since 2012. Those personality flaws, the hate, bigotry… that’s probably just legacy Democrat.
That rape you were talking about. He was a Democrat back then, just like another prominent Democrat also accused of rape, Clinton. what about JFKs womanizing?
Following your standard, than I assume that Democrats approve of rape and womanizing.
That’s fair, right?
Trump tried to get nominated as a candidate as a Democrat. He failed; the Democrats rejected him. Trump then switched to the Republicans and he succeeded in finding a party that would support him, nominate him, and elect him. Trump is something Republicans have to answer for not Democrats.
Conservatism and liberalism are political philosophies. They tend to be associated with Republican and Democrat. But really, the Republicans aren’t very conservative, and the Democrats seem to have abandoned liberalism for leftism.
If you want to talk about these things you need to know what they mean. I don’t think many here do.
In the 90s, Democrats were dismissive of sexual assault and harassment (as were Republicans, in general, of course). It was pretty awful all around – a very harmful and negative culture and society for women and girls.
But present Democrats are not. In the present, Republicans and conservatives generally make excuses for, rationalize, and even celebrate abusers of women within their own ranks, while Democrats and progressives generally chastise and expel abusers of women within their own ranks. Presently, Republicans and conservatives generally make excuses for, rationalize, and even celebrate bigoted, misogynistic, and hateful comments by those within their ranks. Democrats and progressives generally criticize them and even apologize for them. Further, Republicans and conservatives elevated an abuser of women who has made many hateful, misogynistic, and bigoted comments to the highest office and continue to support and even celebrate him – Democrats and progressives have not, and do not.
The past was the past. In the present, Republicans and conservatives, generally, celebrate abusers of women and hateful rhetoric. In the present, Democrats and progressives generally do not. It’s reasonable to judge modern conservatives by the rhetoric and actions of modern conservatives.
As for womanizing, Democrats (rightfully, IMO) generally don’t care about consensual relationships between adults. Republicans don’t appear to either, in general.
So, he is a Democrat masquerading as a Republican. So according to you the Republicans have been hoodwinked and fooled, and Trump’s failings are classically Democrat.
I’m not sure I agree with you but… Ok.
Your personal interpretation differs from mine.