What constitutes a legitimate cite on this board?

Ok, in one of the many Katrina threads, I have already been accused
of “hand-waving”, and I don’t want to be accused of hijacking, hence this new thread.

At what point does the SDMB community consider a cite to be from an accurate, reliable source?

If I posted a link to a “cite” on freerepublic.com, I’d be laughed off the board, and probably rightly so. But a “cite” from socialist worker.org goes by unremarked upon.

BTW, here’s the link to the cite in question:

http://www.socialistworker.org/2005-2/556/556_04_RealHeroes.shtml

Two gems from that source, the windows at the Walgreens in NOLA “gave way” to the looters. No.

Also some nonsense about “sheroes” that I am not even about to try to find again.

That said, socialist worker.org is not a news source, it’s a political opinion outlet, just like the freepers, so I wonder why people would quote either of them as being factual?

P.S. I’m not trying to start a fight, I just want to understand what the expectations are around here, so I can hopefully fit it. Thanks for your help.

Dude. Ctrl+F.

From what I’ve seen, any online encyclopedic resource (wilkepedia or WebMD for example,) any newspaper’s online version (nytimes.com etc,) any wire report (reuters.com,) and first person accounts which do not smack of politics (eg, a blog from a soldier in Iraq, a forum for doctors etc.)

Some sites such as Drudge, the Smoking Gun, even Somethingawful, can be used as cites depending on the article and arguement. FreeRepublic and SocialistWorker can be used, but very very few folks here on the boards would take them seriously.

A link the thread and post in question would be helpful. Maybe it was being ignored because it was so obviously biased.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6566866&postcount=21

Dude, what does that mean?

It’s up to you. You can decide what cites you want to accept, and what you don’t. There is no magical team of arbiters, believe it or not. If you don’t like Socialist Worker, fine - neither do I, just as I don’t like Free Republic. However, I would find it more difficult than you to dismiss what is apparently primary evidence as “opinion”. There is undoubtedly opinion mixed with the eyewitness account, but eyewitness account it remains, assuming that these people aren’t entirely fictional. Assuming you have basic intelligence, you can separate what these people claim to have seen from the conclusions they draw. Or you can reject the entire story outright; that’s your prerogative. I’d certainly want corroboration, but given the chaotic nature of NO at the moment, requiring double-sourced evidence of every event could be pushing it. So you might reasonably reserve judgement. Again, up to you.

Oh, and the cite didn’t go by unremarked upon. You remarked upon it. And you’ve just done so again.

I would like to know what the fuck a “shero” is, though. Please tell me it’s not Socialist Hero, or I may vomit.

I can’t be bothered to read the whole of that turgid thread, but it’s pretty obvious that the link to the Socialist Worker was in the context of, errrr, people writing for the Socialist Worker.

Pressing control and f at the same time enables you to search for words in a document–you can not only bitch about sheroes, but find the actual quotation!

I want to know what a shero is, too…female Socialist hero? :wink:

I agree that the two named sources should be less well received generally. However, I do recall one time being asked for a bit of info (specifically states laws regarding felons and voting) and I linked to the first source that gave the info in an easy to read format. unfortunately, it was something like the socialists.world.org or some such shit. the data was correct, and verifiable, but it was rejected because of the source.

the fact that such a site puts something on their web site shouldn’t all by itself mean that it’s bullshit. after all, if they also listed (correctly) the Bill of Rights, shouldn’t mean that it was incorrect.
I believe in the thread listed, there was an implication that the account was also available on a wire service. of course, we’d prefer to see that.

I should also add that Wikipedia is not generally considered to be a sufficient cite around these parts, mainly because it’s so easily edited by random people who can say whatever the hell they want. I once had a friend whose greatest joy in life was constantly editing Wikipedia to say that the capital of France is Berlin…

I agree, that Wikipedia has its limitations. It’s brilliant for, say, ‘how does radar work?’. But for specific facts of a remotely-contentious nature, it’s not the best place to link to, even if it is an excellent starting-point for finding such information.

Yes I did. But it seems everyone else accepted it without question. And that’s what led to my query here. It seems, well, unusual, at best.

As I said, I’m not wading through that muck to find it again, but I got the impression that “shero” is a “female hero”. Urg. I thought political correctness dictated that we always use gender neutral terms? Like flight attendant vs. stewardess, or even actor for Katherine Hepburn vs. actress.

It’s really hard to find the ‘sheroes’ stuff. Slap-bang in the headline, which is drawn directly from the only use of the word in the article. Storm in a teacup.

Actually, I don’t care how hard (or easy) it is to find. “sheroes” is stupid, and renders anything else they have to say completely useless for intelligent conversation. IMHO, YMMV.

Yes, you’re right, such simplistic assumptions are your opinion only. In mine, they’re bone-headed and just plain wrong.

Quite a lot of people in that thread were talking about different things, and weren’t even responding to the post you mention. And for that matter, your objection to the story was put in terms that, to be frank, don’t paint you in the best light. Citing Socialist Worker means you “automatically lose”? Sheesh. A bit playgroundy, don’t you think? SW have published an eyewitness account which has some terms and opinion in that you find objectionable, and that’s fine, but to dismiss the firsthand descriptions outright, you’re going to have to try a bit harder than just shooting the messenger. Other links were posted in that thread to stories which referenced the SW contributors’ story while trying to corroborate the facts. This is a much more mature way to go about things than just saying “ha ha, Socialist Worker, you lose!”

Basically, the answer to your question is that a) it’s all subjective, b) if the piece in question were purely opinion then IMHO you’d be quite justified in rejecting it out of hand, but that c) it’s first-hand reporting, which to my mind you have to make a bit more effort to refute. Mileage will vary like an SUV with a wheel missing, however.

Oh, so it’s supposed to be shero? Gawd agatha. What the fuck happened to “heroine”? God, I hate that sort of linguistic wankery. On the other hand, using it to dismiss the entire account is perhaps even more daft than the use of the word itself, so it’s even stevens, I guess.

My post is my cite.

In honor of the dearly departed Aldy.

In my opinion, the type of citation that i would consider legitimate varies depending upon the type of claims being made, and the type of information being cited.

For example, there are many rather straightforward and banal questions of fact upon which Wikipedia or FreeRepublic or the Social Worker would probably all be in fairly close agreement, and for which all those sites would constitute a reasonable citation.

Of course, going to the original source is always better than a second- or third-hand source. So if, for example, the Free Republic says, “According to the White House…”, i think it would be better to check whether or not the White House did, in fact, say what they are quoted as saying. The large number of offical websites where primary information (e.g., White House press conferences, offical documents, etc.) can be found means that finding the original source of the information is often not too difficult.

Remember, also, that organisations like the Socialist Worker and Free Republic often get much of their basic information from mainstream news sources such as AP, Reuters, the New York Times, and official and unofficial government sources. Unless you believe that they falt out fabricate things—not entirely beyond the realms of possibility, i’ll concede—then it’s probably reasonable to accept many of their basic issues of fact, especially concerning issues where their information can easily be crossed-checked with other, perhaps more reputable sources.

Of course, in a situation like the current one in Louisiana, where information is coming from a variety of sources, and many of those seem to contradict one another, then it can be problematic working out exactly what went on. And this is exacerbated by the fact that, even if we have the “facts,” different people often interpret the same “facts” in very different ways, based on a variety of factors, including their own political predispositions. Look, for example, at a radical critic of US foreign policy like Noam Chomsky. If you read his books, you’ll see that many—actually most—of his footnotes refer to the same newspapers and magazine articles that everyone else has access to. It’s just that his interpretation differs from that of many other people.

For me, the biggest problem with “citations” on this message board is when someone links to what is essentially an opinion piece or—not so bad—an interpretive piece and presents it as the final word, the ultimate truth, without conceding that reasonable people can differ in their interpretations.

Another thing that chaps my ass is people—and luckily there aren’t too many of them—who insist that a citation be a linkable internet article. I remember that the late, unlamented milroyj once refused to accept a citation i provided because it came from a Lexis/Nexis search and i couldn’t provide him with a direct link to the article. The fact that i listed the newspaper, the date, and the page number of the article was not enough for him. I’ve also seen people who, when directed to books or journal articles, complain that the citation is not good if they can’t get it online. It might surprise some people to know this, but the entire sum of human knowledge is not yet available on the internet.

I agree with Dead Badger. You tried to poison the well by simply dismissing the account, outright, rather than finding other sources that contradicted the claims made. You then went on to drag in a whole separate claim regarding looters that had nothing to do with the people camped on the end of the Mississippi bridge while other posters were digging up citations from independent sources that confirmed at least some of the claims made by the authors of the article.

I agree that the language in the SW article was fairly polemical. So what? Freepers don’t get ignored for posting information; they get ignored for posting editorial opinions that do not jibe with facts. Similarly, Moveon.org gets bashed for massive spin, as does Drudge. However, when apparently factual information is presented, refutation requires providing evidence to the contrary. If we decide to ignore any source that has proven to spin its stories or produce falsehoods, we can pretty well ignore any pronouncement emanating from the White House (for any administration).