What dead politicians were most plausibly demonic

In the television show Angel --which, for those of you who are unintiated into the Buffyverse, concerns the adventures of an ensouled vampire fighting for redemption by fighting demons as an private detective–there was a third-season episode titled “Fredless” in which the title character met one of his employees’ parents. Angel was considerably older than any of the other main characters and was sometimes vexed when he’d refer to something happening in, say, the 60s, and get blank stares. In this episode, he connects with the father when he’s asked if Spiro Agnew was a demon; Angel happily confirms that, saying he thought he was the only one who knew.

Which brings me to the point of this post: What dead politicos would you be LEAST surprised to find out wasn’t a human being, and why?

(I am specifying “dead” to avoid Bush-Clinton-Cheney bashing.)

Have at it.

Ooh, this thread is going to work out beautifully…

Let’s get the obvious one out of the way: Nixon.

Hitler.

You didn’t say they had to be American Politicians.

All of them? :slight_smile:

Seriously, Roy Cohn comes to mind, as do McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover.

If non-Americans are allowed the standard laundry list, I guess, starting with Hitler and working through Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mussolini, Idi Amin, Whatsisname from Albania, Milosevic, etc. etc.

Note that I also said “And why?”
Try to be amusing, if you can. :slight_smile:

Hmmm…something funny about Nixon, eh?

Uh, let’s see, they called him “Tricky Dick”. The devil’s tricky, so…

chirp
chirp

Man, what a tough crowd…

Sheriff Jos. F. Shipp
The only punishment that anyone ever received, to my knowledge, for the lynching of an innocent man, was that handed down by the Supreme Court. Shipp never even investigated the lynching. And was seen as a hero for it.

Sworn to uphold the law, he, at best, allowed it’s breaking to be condoned, and at worst conspired with that breaking to see mob justice prevail against an innocent man.

Do Monarchs count as “politicians”?

Enver Hoxha?

OP sayeth yes.

But I want supporting documentation, people!

Emperors Caligula and Commodus seem to qualify, then.

And for a wild one, how about…Lenin?

He helped overthrow a corrupt and oppressive regime…only to replace it with another, even corrupt and oppressive system of government, which helped spawn even worse communist regimes and dictators throughout the world during the twentieth century and beyond, leading to the suffering and death of millions.

I’m not so sure I’d buy Lenin.

Stalin, on the other hand, had far more to do with shaping the Soviet Union that most of us knew. And is far more culpable than Lenin in my mind for the crimes you’ve listed.

I’d have to say Catherine de’ Medici, mostly for the whole St Bartholomew’s Day massare thing. I’d also say King Pilip II of Spain for laughing when he heard about it (if it’s true that he actually did).

And also Pope Gregory XIII for his reaction to the above massaces

Stalin’s easy, Stalin’s obvious. But Lenin set the stage, he started it all…good old comrade Lenin, who only worked for good, only wanted to help the people help themselves. Everything that went wrong—that wasn’t his fault. He wouldn’t do that. You can trust him.

And it’s just what The Devil would have one think, isn’t it? :eek:

Just one Pope? Good grief, I’m Catholic, and I expect that there’s huge numbers of Popes that are, at best, suffering in Purgatory right now. Let’s see if I can find a quick laundry list. :smiley:

On preview, Ranchoth, you have a point. However, if you want to be really sneaky - let’s nominate Trotskiy. In part, his intransigence towards compromise with Stalin did much to both increase the central power of the Party, and the Party’s organs, set the stage for many of Stalin’s purges, especially of the officer corps of the Red Army, and did much to remove any moderation from those people closest to Stalin. I mean, if everyone’s out to get you, was Stalin really paranoid?

The Emperor Nero. He was a sadist and he killed his own mother. An “angler in the Lake of Darkness”, says Shakespeare. Who knew his stuff.

Leopold, King of the Belgians for condoning and supporting the horrifically evil treatment of the Congolese natives in what was then the Belgian Congo (19th century).

Egads.

I’m not even into the second millenium, heck not even to the period of the end of the first millenium, and this guy shows up: Pope Sergius III. I’m not sure which is worse - the fact that he disenterred a previous Pope to have him tried posthumously (Again! :eek: ) convicted, and then beheaded; or that he began what is called the Pornocracy period of the Papacy. I think I’ll just leave it simply that he doesn’t sound like a very nice nor Holy person.

Given what I’d heard of the Church’s actions around the turn of the First Millenium, I was expecting to hear that the Pope of that time, Pope Sylvester II, had condoned or even participated in the rise of millenial fever. Instead the man seems to have been a scholar and would-be reformer. Which makes the legends about his partnership with the Devil particularly amusing.

As an aside - I’m choosing to ignore the various AntiPopes. I’m sure that some were as venal as we could hope for this thread, but I don’t think they actually count as Popes, really. And many were would-be reformers in their own rights. I’m hoping for more simple situations - not those who get ground up in Church politics. But now that I’m past 1000 AD the meat of those Popes I expect to be feeling toasty is coming. Oh, Senor Borgia…?

I might as well put this here, since I’m thinking of it - I’m not going to list any Pope for nomination to this thread simply because he fathered children, or even put relatives or children into positions of authority for which they were clearly unsuited. It seems unjust, to my mind, to be condemning these Princes of the church for acting like the nobility they were becoming. I do not approve of such behavior, but it’s not Demonic. There has to be something more to rate that claim. Like this next chap. :smiley:

In the realm of bad historical comedy, let me introduce you to Pope Benedict IX. Possibly the youngest Pope ever, his father put him upon the Papal throne while he was very young. Some sources claim he was all of 13, perhaps even 11 years old. Others have him as a young man of approximately 18. Either way, a very young Pontiff. This young gentleman seems to have been an orthodox theologian, and not unskilled as an administrator. However, he is also noteworthy for having been Pope three times. He accepted a bribe of over half a ton of gold to bestow the Papacy upon one of his successors. He is also accused in contemporary sources of being a libertine of the first water. What leads me to nominate him as a potential Demon is that he sacked his way (with his family’s help, of course.) back onto the Papal throne, twice!

I wanted to nominate Pope Adrian IV to this list. There’s an interesting little note in Wikipedia’s list of the Popes - he is the one who ceded Ireland to Henry II of England. I want to lay some of the blame for the Troubles at this man’s feet. Realistically - I can’t. Simple geography makes it unreasonable to expect Ireland to have been anything other than an English satrapy, unless the clans were willing to unite. And Ireland, like Scotland, was full of clansmen who would be glad to use the English to do a bad turn to a rival. Still, having Papal authority in Ireland for the English throne isn’t what I’d call a good thing, either. So, I won’t make the accusation, but I won’t defend the man either if someone else wants to make it.

Pope Gregory VIII leaves me no such mixed feelings. As Pope he called for the formation of the Third Crusade. Which is and of itself enough for nomination to this list. He’s also the man who, as Papal Legate to the council of Avranches in 1172 which absolved Henry II of the murder of Thomas a Beckett.

More to come. I want to post this before I lose it. :wink:

Now things begin to get interesting. The High Middle Ages. The Crusades, and the rising secular power of the church culminates with Pope Boniface VIII. In his effort to secure complete authority for the Church Boniface had some rather pointed conflicts with various Princes, which eventually lead to his death after a period of captivity - and the establishment of the Avignon Papacy. For the latter, alone, one might be willing to nominate the man for Demonhood. I think, however that Dante was on the money when he damned the still-living Pope in his Inferno for the destruction of Palestrina, and killing some six thousand souls.

If you’re interested in that sort of thing, reading the Wikipedia article is particularly interesting for the posthumous attempt by the King of France to have the former Pope excommunicated. Some of the quotes from the council (Which, apparantly couldn’t make up its mind.) are particularly modern-seeming. Others are nihilistic to a degree that would frighten me from anyone, let alone a medieval prince. Many are both at the same time. :wink:

Pope Clement V was the pope who actually began the period of the Avignon Papacy. For all the flaws of this period, it is not something that I will say is demonic in it’s nature. Like Adrian IV, I don’t like the effects of the decision, but Clement V seems to have been trying to remove the Papacy from the control of several families in and about Rome - a goal I can’t exactly condemn.

This doesn’t mean that Clement gets a bye from me. He’s also the Pope who supported Phillip’s destruction of the Knights Templar. While there is some question about the holiness of the Knights, it is generally believed that the charges against the order were drummed up simply to allow Phillip to raid their coffers. Weakening the Church as a military power can’t be ignored, either, even if the Templars had not exactly been the most obedient of orders. There are other scandals associated with Clement, and he established the Jubilee, too - which helped to pave the way for the Protestant Reformation. So, yeah, Demonic. VERY Demonic.

Another aside, here. I’m not trying to claim that the Reformation was a bad thing. By the time it happened the Church was quite venal, as I think my willingness to make this list will show. However necessary it might be, however, doesn’t change that the Reformation also lead to some of the most bloody, destructive and immoral periods of history. Steps that could have avoided the need for the Reformation but not taken are thus going to be very high on my list of probably Demonic actions.

I’m going to put Pope Sixtus IV on the list of Demonic Popes. Yes, he did some things that were/are admirable - most notably comissioning the Sistine Chapel. But he’s also the Pope to acquiese to the Spanish Inquisition, even if he tried to repudiate the greater atrocities of that office. His personal life was…questionable, at best. He instigated wars for the goal of providing his relatives with thrones of their own, and then abandoned allies. He sold indulgences. He’s even rumored to have fathered his sister’s son.

Immediately following Sixtus was Pope Innocent VIII. To say the name is ironic understates the case. At the time of his death he left behind sixteen children, all of whom he had bestowed nepotistic offices upon. He is also responsible for giving Henry VII of England right to the kingdom by the threefold right of Blood, Conquest, and Popular Choice. As I suspect Henry of the murders of the little princes I find that more than a little ironic. (BTW - Henry VII definately makes the list of Demonic Kings.) What particuarly incites my anger against this Pontiff is that he supported the witch-hunting craze by issuing the proclaimation Summis Desiderantes, which was pivotal in making Malleus Malefacarum the text on witch-hunting for the next several centuries. Although later condemned by the Papal Inquisition, itself, the Malleus Malefacarum remained the textbook for how to find, test, and destroy witches.

Now, the one Pope I knew, before I began this research, that would be on my list: The former Rodrigo Borgia - Pope Alexander VI. To begin with there is the suspicion he bought the election that made him Pope. While he was an able adminstrator, and actually rather restful theologically, after the actions of Innocent VIII, his passion of nepotism was such that he was willing to plunge of all of Italy into war for the purpose of enriching his children and relatives. He made his sons Cardinals, and while there is reason to believe that Lucreita is innocent of the crimes normally ascribed to her, she was used by Alexander ruthlessly as a prize for his secular goals. I think the most condemnatory thing one can say about Alexander was that he was a true Rennaisance Prince - with all the greed, venality, and evil that entailed. I don’t even need the pretense of Angel to think this was a truly Demonic Papacy.

His successor, Pope Pius III, tried to begin reforms from the court that Alexander established, but died after only twenty-six days.

While Pope Julius II was a strong leader for the Church, he was also so focused on martial glory he provoked several wars in Italy, and acted far more as a secular Prince than my estimation of Pope. Considering that the Wikipedia article listed here also includes a summation of Barbara Tuchman’s condemnation of this man, I’m willing to go with my instict that says so war-like a Pope is likely Demonic.

Just look, we’re only up to 1513, and I’ve already lost track of how many Demonic Popes we’ve had. And if we skip Pius III there’s four - in a row!

At this point, I’ve gotten a little bored with this. And, well, breakfast is almost ready, so I’m taking a break. If there is interest in more Demonic Popes, I’ll continue this later. It certainly is an interesting study. (If a little disheartening.) It’s nothing that I find surprising. I just wish it weren’t.

I hope you’ve enjoyed this fruit of insomnia. :smiley: