What defines Human?

my definition of human for now…
“A member of the human gene pool.”

A bit circular, but at least this includes non-breeding people, people with artificial parts, etc. If some virus inserts itself into our DNA, well, then it’s now part of the human genetic code.

I was going to say “Homo sapiens’ gene pool” but then I remembered the “extinct humans”. (e.g., H. ergaster, etc.)

As for the robot scenario…that is something else that has human traits…unless it also develops the potential to interbreed with us (be part of our gene pool). That sentient robot can have rights without having to be “human rights”. Perhaps we just say “human rights” because we have yet to encounter another species (well, at least not in the past 30,000 years since the neanderthals) with enough sentience & communicative skill to demand that their rights be recognized.

How do we know that humans, chimps and dolphins are the only sentient beings? Other animals can recognize others of their species, so that shows a type of awareness, doesn’t it? I don’t think it’s the best criteria for “being human” either way, since I don’t consider Flipper to be a human … and if being sentient was all that counted, I’d guess that’d make Smurfs human, and it’d make the debate friends and I have about them being humanoid or animal a moot point.

Of the list I’d consider 1-3, 8,9, and reluctantly 4 to be human, all on the basis for having the genetic material of humans. I’m not sure what you mean by 10, but if you just mean a person with “designer genes” then that’d be a human too. As for the others, I could believe with all my heart that I’m a toaster, but it doesn’t make me one; it’d just show I was nuts. Believing you’re something doesn’t make you that thing.

I agree. I think that many animal species have some degree of sentience…particularly evident in large mammals and primates (or perhaps we just recognize it better in species that are more similar to us). Anyway, I think it’s a matter of degree where humans are much more intelligent/sentient than other species, but the intelligence/sentience of other species is not “zero”.

An interesting tidbit I heard from S.J. Gould was that humans live longer than we are “supposed to” as compared to other animals. There is some correlation between total heartbeats/breaths (metabolism I guess) and lifespan. Creatures with rapid heartbeats, etc. live shorter than those with slower heart rates. I guess the correlation is fairly good…but humans jump off that scale and live far longer than that equation would predict.

We also seem to jump off the scale for matters of intelligence vs. brain size and other measures of animal behavior.

Perhaps being human is being the exception to the rule. :slight_smile:

Heh–I just had a thought (always a dangerous thing, believe me) re: Libertarian’s definition of a Human being anything that’s a receptable for The Big Guy’s spirit. If we accept that Big G is infinite, then He/She/It is in everything in the Universe. Can TBG be physically separated from It’s spirit? Improbable. So I’m left with the observation that the entire Universe is Human.

And that I’m somehow lodged in It’s intestinal tract… :wink:

I don’t believe there is any evidence of dolphins being sentient. Aren’t they about as smart as wolves?

Nonsense. Dolphins can and do recognize themselves in mirrors, something only primates have been known to do. Furthermore, they can tell when you put marks on their bodies, where they are on their bodies, and how to see them in a mirror. (Full results available at the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.)This is so damned close to what we would consider “sentience” as to make the differences irrelevant.

Lib, I can see your objections even if no one else can. Lightnin’ is denigrating your answers as if there is only one “right” answer and yours is obviously “wrong,” even if he himself neither knows what the “right” answer is nor can he even provide his own answer. If he cannot even say how he would defend himself if asked to prove he was human, how can he say your answer is wrong?

For me, I think you’re wrong, but that’s just my opinion. I think the differences between, say, Neanderthals and Homo sapiens are trivial enough that one cannot say the latter is human while the former is not.

Pldennison, that’s not what I’m trying to do. I asked for a definition of “human”, and Libertarian responded with “anything with a soul” (if I understand him correctly).

Now, currently I’m recognized as being human. My question is thus-
If I have a prosthetic limb, am I still human?
If I have an artificial organ, am I still human?
If I have a completely artificial brain, am I still human?
If part of my brain is replaced by a microprocessor, am I still human?
If I encode my brain into a computer, am I still human?

I’m asking for the “cut-off” point at which a person is no longer considered human. Libertarian responded with "if you’ve got a soul, you’re human. Of what use is that answer? This is the important part, now, pay attention: how can we tell if a given entity has a soul?

Lib’s solution requires that we be able to detect a soul- otherwise the answer is meaningless. It’s the same as saying, “Well, I’d just know!”

Whether I can “prove” that I’m human doesn’t even enter into the equation- that’s exactly the question I’m posing!

Look, let’s turn it around- how does anyone prove that they are human? I don’t have an answer- I’m looking for one! Look around you- you know that your friends are human, while a chimp is not (even though they share, what, 99% of our genetic code with us?)- what makes your friends human?

My tentative solution, which I actually posted above, is: If you are sentient, and you want to be a part of human society, and you can relate to other humans- hey, welcome to the club. A sufficiently intelligent computer could therefore gain “citizenship” (a status which is currently limited to “humans”). A “brain in a box” would have just as many rights as a completely unchanged homo sapiens. An alien raised here on Earth? No problemo.

Now, does anyone see any problems with this?

Preview, preview, preview, dammit.

In my defense, I woke up real early this morning, and I haven’t had my diet Dr.Pepper.

I can understand your objections to Lib’s answer, Lightnin–as an atheist, I have many of the same objections. However, you seem to have decided a priori that “What makes a human” is something that has to be detectable under controlled and repeatable laboratory questions, and dismissed out-of-hand any answer that doesn’t fit that requirements. For all you and I know, Lib’s answer happens to be correct, making control, repeatability and detection irrelevant.

Please take this in the spirit of friendliness: I’ll ask once nicely for you to please not to condescend to me with phrases like “pay attention,” and then I simply won’t speak to you anymore. I have been on hiatus from the SDMB for a long time because of stuff just like that, and don’t need it.

To answer your question, given the probable implications that arise from the existence of souls in the first place, I would submit that not only can’t we tell, it isn’t up to us to tell. It would, however, behoove us to treat with compassion all living beings capable of feeling pain and articulating their likes and dislikes, however primitively.

Given the ten zillion possible definitions of what a soul is, my own personal answer to how we tell if an entity has one is either, “Look into its eyes” or, if it doesn’t have eyes, to ask, “Can it suffer?”

Again, given the implications that arise from the existence of souls, I’d submit that whether we can detect them would be irrelevant. AFAIC, if they exist, then at the very least, all mammals have them.

At the risk of being tautoligical – and this isn’t said in snideness – what makes my friends human is the fact that their DNA codes for the species H. sapiens. It’s the same thing that makes a member of C. familiaris canine rather than feline. It’s just a set of traits.

It does seem that what you’re driving at is something regarding sentience rather than humanity. Is a human brain in a computerized body “human”? Probably not, IMO? Is it sentient? Absolutely. Does it therefore deserve all the rights and priveleges that we as humans grant to ourselves but keep from other living creatures? Yes.

I agree with you 100%. I believe that, due to their sentience, we have an ethical responsibility to, for starters, higher primates and aquatic mammals that we do not have for, say, aphids.

Proving that there is a spirit (as by dying) and recognizing that there is a spirit (as by reasoning) are two very different things. There are many such ambiguities that boil down to, “I can’t tell you what it is, but I know it when I see it.” That was the essential definition that the Supreme Court of the United States left us for determining what is and is not obscene. We deal with many things in life which are more than the sum of their parts. In philosophy, it’s called a “gestalt”.

But we can reason our way, perhaps, toward things we cannot prove by observation. I didn’t witness the signing of the Declaration of Independence, but I can see the signatures. What sort of evidence, or signatures, would we expect to see from a creature with the potential to house an eternal and supernatural spirit? These are how I see it:

[li] 1. He should have the potential for some sense of his own existence beyond simple fight or flight. Besides merely eating, shitting, fucking, and sleeping, we might expect that he would seek out a broader fulfillment. We would not expect him to be satisfied otherwise.[/li]
[li] 2. He should have the potential to develop a comprehension of Platonic ideals. We would expect that he might parlay his thoughts into poetry and interpretation, rather than simply processing sensory input and reacting to his environment.[/li]
[li] 3. Closely related, he should have the potential to create. We would expect his interpretation of his environment to go beyond that of mere survival. We might expect him to see a banana as perhaps an idea for creating art, and not as just something to eat. We would expect him to assign meaning to things that don’t mean anything in and of themselves.[/li]
[li] 4. He should exhibit the potential to reach outside himself, just as his Creator did. We might expect that he would explore for exploration’s sake, that he would not merely migrate, but hope and yearn that there is something better on the other side of the hill.[/li]
[li] 5. He should show that he has the potential to fight, not just for territory, not just for possessions, but for principle. We would expect things that aren’t even material to matter to him. We would expect him to hold on to a thing, not just because he found it, or because it helps him survive, but because he treasures it.[/li]
[li] 6. He should have the potential to develop a morality, i.e., a comprehension, not just of a relational ethic or pecking order, but of good and evil. We might expect to see in him shame, not just over a deed, but over a thought, not just because he might be punished, but because he values goodness. Alternatively, we might expect that he would delight in evil for evil’s sake.[/li]
[li] 7. He should demonstrate the potential to recognize his own specialness, that is, he should ask himself such questions as “what makes me, as a human, different from the other animals?” We might expect that he would debate this question with others, and that the others who join him in debate share his specialness.[/li]
There are many others, such as the way he deals with his own mortality, but you get the idea. Until you show me the effects of “morality waves” on a gauge, until you let me see the experiment where you have trapped “meaning particles” in an accelerator, until you define by what mechanism I may produce a “fulfillment field”, you leave me no choice but to gaze outside my atoms and see my Spirit.

Damn, that was a good post, Lib.
xeno - taking notes

Ah, finally I can post. SD’s being entirely too slow for my liking today- five minutes to post! Aargh! What the heck am I supposed to do at the office, if not post to the SD? Work?

Anyway…

But that’s the whole point, innit? If a definition isn’t, well, definite, it’s not a definition, is it? Saying X has a soul (and is therefore human), while Y has no soul (and is therefore an animal), without first demonstrating the “soul”, is only so much mumbo-jumbo. After all, who gets to decide who does or doesn’t have a soul?

Sorry about that. That wasn’t aimed at you. Throughout this thread people have been assuming that I’ve already decided on the right answer, and just proclaiming their answers wrong. I’m not, I swear! I am having trouble stating exactly what I mean by “human”- hence the subject of the OP- and it seems everyone has their own definition of the word. However, I gave concrete examples, and I didn’t ask which of those examples have souls- I asked which are human. Lib was the one who equated “human” with “soul”- and while he may or may not be correct in his own viewpoint, it’s a useless answer in the real world, as the soul cannot be proven. Heck, a lot of people don’t even believe in the thing!

I’ve also gotten tired of several posters (he grumbled) latching onto one small part of my posts, and ignoring the main question. And I hadn’t had my diet Dr. Pepper. And the dogs woke me up an hour-and-a-half early.

Ugh. Quoting is such tedium. There oughtta be a law.

Anyway- does genetic structure determine admission into human society? If we go that road, what’s the cutoff? Those with Down’s Syndrome have an extra chromosome (if I remember correctly, and I probably don’t). Are they still “human”? I have a cousing with Down’s, and she’s one of the sweetest people I know- and is decidedly human.

Is Speciesism the way to go?

Libertarian- good post, indeed. Good definition- but I have a few concerns…

First- every example requires the entity to be reactive to its environment. What about an accident victim, who’s now in a coma? How about an autistic child? Are they humans, or merely meat?

Anyway, on to each point.

*1. He should have the potential for some sense of his own existence beyond simple fight or flight. Besides merely eating, shitting, fucking, and sleeping, we might expect that he would seek out a broader fulfillment. We would not expect him to be satisfied otherwise. *

Okay. I can dig that. Boredom avoidance as an indicator, if I get you.

*2. He should have the potential to develop a comprehension of Platonic ideals. We would expect that he might parlay his thoughts into poetry and interpretation, rather than simply processing sensory input and reacting to his environment. *

All righty. No problems with this one. Seems to be reasonable.

*3. Closely related, he should have the potential to create. We would expect his interpretation of his environment to go beyond that of mere survival. We might expect him to see a banana as perhaps an idea for creating art, and not as just something to eat. We would expect him to assign meaning to things that don’t mean anything in and of themselves. *

Abstract thought, perhaps? No prob.

*4. He should exhibit the potential to reach outside himself, just as his Creator did. We might expect that he would explore for exploration’s sake, that he would not merely migrate, but hope and yearn that there is something better on the other side of the hill. *

But if God’s infinite, how can he reach outside of himself? Never mind- not the subject at hand.
Did the Mars Rover exhibit this? You know, before it broke.

*5. He should show that he has the potential to fight, not just for territory, not just for possessions, but for principle. We would expect things that aren’t even material to matter to him. We would expect him to hold on to a thing, not just because he found it, or because it helps him survive, but because he treasures it. *

Uh, gettin’ a bit abstract here. I can’t think of a single principle I’ll fight for- possessions, territory, and other people (altruism, I’ll grant you), I would fight for, though. My dog’s favorite thing is his ball (he didn’t find it, and it doesn’t add to his survival)- is that a treasure? Does he fulfill this requirement?

*6. He should have the potential to develop a morality, i.e., a comprehension, not just of a relational ethic or pecking order, but of good and evil. We might expect to see in him shame, not just over a deed, but over a thought, not just because he might be punished, but because he values goodness. Alternatively, we might expect that he would delight in evil for evil’s sake. *

Gettin’ a bit into woo-woo territory here, aren’t you? Good and Evil are complete abstracts.
A man kills- is he Evil?
The man killed to protect his friend- is he now Good?
The man had to protect his friend, because his friend poisoned the city’s water supply- is he Evil again?
The man’s friend did it because he believed that it would kill off the imaginary aliens- is he Good?

Many people throughout history have believed themselves to be Good. How many, do you suppose, thought of themselves as Evil- or were they, perhaps, doing what they felt they needed to do? Who woke up one day and said, “I LOVE being Evil!”?

Perhaps “Altruism and Selfishness” are more applicable?

Anyway.

*7. He should demonstrate the potential to recognize his own specialness, that is, he should ask himself such questions as “what makes me, as a human, different from the other animals?” We might expect that he would debate this question with others, and that the others who join him in debate share his specialness. *

Hmmm. “I’m an individual, just like everyone else”?
Apart from my observations, I like most of the definitions you’ve put forward, Lib. Good post.

Thank you, Xeno. God go with you.

Lightin

No, it doesn’t. Fulfillment, for example. Exploration, not just of the next hill, but of the next idea. Another activity in which humans engage frequently is meditation, whose very goal is to shut out the environment.

What do you know of what is in a man’s Spirit as he lies in a coma? You want evidence of God’s spirit in an autistic child? Read Marshall Stewart Ball’s Kiss of God - The Wisdom of a Silent Child.

No. But the guys at NASA did.

Likely without meaning to, you have insulted the men who landed at the beaches of France; the men who sacrificed everything because they believed that all men are created equal, and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; and the men and women throughout history, like Martin Luther King, Jr. and Rosa Parks, who have fought for noble ideals and greater purpose.

Your dog’s favorite toy? Feh. Rub his favorite toy against some other object until the odors are transumed, then throw his now former favorite toy away.

That’s the whole point.

Phil

In my life, I have seen no more beautiful spirit than your own, Phil. You are a man who is kind and merciful to earth’s most helpless creatures, a man who is willing to change his mind when evidence compels him, and a man who loves justice. You’re a sharp man who sees through pretense and recognizes its moral hypocrisy. I hope one day to have the honor of meeting you face to face.

Hmm. So just thinking is enough to satisfy this requirement? We’re getting to the point where computers can think (at least theoretically)- what say you to that?

Again, Libertarian, we’re looking for concrete evidence. Simply saying that someone thinks, therefore he’s got a soul, therefore he’s human, ain’t enough. If I assert that the Silly Putty sitting on my monitor right now may be thinking really deep thoughts and therefore should be able to vote in the next election, why shouldn’t it be able to vote?

I’ll try to read that book. Are you saying they have solid evidence of God’s Spirit?!? Wow! Why didn’t this hit the papers? Has American Scientific heard of this?

Pardon? You said, “He should exhibit the potential to reach outside himself, just as his Creator did. We might expect that he would explore for exploration’s sake, that he would not merely migrate, but hope and yearn that there is something better on the other side of the hill.”

How do YOU know the Mars Rover didn’t yearn? Yeah, sure, it was programmed by NASA to explore around a bit… but seeing as how the thing was built to explore the surface of Mars, it seems to me that it’s entire PURPOSE was to find out what’s on the other side of that (rather smallish and red) hill. According to various religions, God made Man- effectively programming us with the need to explore. So, either the Mars Rover fulfills this qualification, or Man, himself, can’t fulfill it.

As a matter of fact, my dog Flash can fulfill this qualification, too- he explores just for the sheer joy of exploring.

Next you’ll be comparing me to Hitler. You and I both know that what I said was NOT insulting to those people. Stop it. Stick to the subject at hand.

Oh, and so what if my dog can pick a new favorite? It fulfills the original qualification you posted- adding that bit about scent doesn’t mean a damn thing.

Oh, and it’s not the scent he likes- he likes it 'cause it’s his, and it’s fun to play with.

You know, the more I look at your list of qualifications, the more I think you’re at least subconsciously defining “Human” as “Whatever God made in his image”. This is a neat bit of circular reasoning- I think God made humans, so therefore whatever properties I imagine God to have must be those properties God made humans to have, therefore they are humans.

Lightin, every epistemology is both arbitrary and circular. I would hang around and masturbate with you, but I’ve already gotten off. I’ll leave you the pictures, and see you in another debate. :wink:

I was planning a response to your criteria for humanity, but if you are leaving the thread I will not bother. If you are interested in seeing it, please post again.

I will make one quibble with your parting shot, though.

Actually, every epistemology must be either arbitrary or circular.

Spiritus

Well, I was done with Lightnin. I see no need to endure a Jab-type assault where my adversary is speaking for me while he himself goes all over the place like a wet bar of soap in a hurricane. Your posts are like Jello; there is always room for more. :wink:

You’re right about the epistemologies.

As to my perception of humanity and the Spirit that dwells in it, you may feel free to respond, of course. Before you do, however, I do realize that evidence, lacking proof, may be construed either way. You might point to the limbic system, for example, as evidence that there is no Spirit, while I might point to it as evidence that there is. As I’ve said before, there is no one thing, in isolation, that has given me my convictions. Therefore, bullet-pointing them as isolated criteria and rebutting is like listing isolated premises and saying for each one, “Well, if you had taken this as axiomatic instead of that, your premise would not follow.”

I can’t speak for you, but my perceptions are not like a photograph. They are like an impressionist painting, where the picture can be seen only by taking it in as a whole. A false memory here, a skewed perception there, and before long, if I peer in too closely, I am looking at nothing but haphazard brush marks that make no sense. And that was equally true before my world-view shifted. If I had to give an analogy, it would be like staring at one of those 3D pictures until the intention of the artist appears. The trigger, of course, you’re well aware of. Jesus annonced that He is God in a way that was meaningful and convincing for me. I cannot now not see the 3D image.

You are a great thinker, certainly greater than I. Nevertheless, the task you face is convincing me, not that I myself am wrong, but that Jesus is. Because, no matter what you say, when I see your argument, I will always revert in my own mind back to “but Jesus says…” or “Jesus seems…” or “Jesus shows…”.

“Aha!” Jab will say, “so you’re saying your mind is made up!” Well, yes it is. Jesus speaks by the authority of God. By what authority do you and I speak? Jesus is the Truth. You and I merely speculate about truth. Jesus is the Way. You and I merely search for the way. Jesus is the Life. You and I cannot even agree upon a definition of life.

Jesus is the Son of Man. You and I cannot even agree on what a man is. Therefore, what will we debate? You and I have been around a while. We’ve danced the dance many times. And you have faithfully corrected this or that point that I have made in haste. But on the matter of the Spirit as a whole, you face a much different task. You face the task of nullifying my initial conversion experience. You face the task of saying something, not just right, but profound; not just true, but Absolutely True, not just sensible, but incontrovertible.

You must show me the material evidence, that I cannot interpret differently than you, that I have been deceived. If you feel compelled to take on this task, then proceed.