What do anti-Covid-protocol people think the "true" motive of maskers, vaxxers, distancers is?

Which is I think a form of projection. They are obsessed with not being controlled, so they assume the motivation of those mandating masks is control.

When in reality from what I’ve seen the political leaders tasked with imposing mask mandates etc would much rather not exercise the control they are having to exercise, because of the political damage it is doing to them.

Agreed.

That COVID has gone on so long is our bad luck (with credit going to the virus itself).

In most countries, incidence has gone on a crazy up and down trajectory, briefly becoming rare and then bouncing up again. Take Canada as an example.

An exception is Chile, where, for only the first time in the pandemic, COVID is rare right now.

Eventually, maybe when we least expect it, COVID will become rare and stay that way.

Or maybe it will stick around, like malaria in much of the world. But probably it will go away.

This is a reason to vaccinate as soon as possible. Waiting longer will give you less of the benefit and the same small amount of risk.

That is exactly my impression. First off we should be clear that the scientific method style way of making decisions doesn’t apply to these people. It isn’t collect data → reach conclusion. Its reach conclusion → invent justification.*

The fact is that these people simply don’t want to stay home, social distance or wear masks, and they don’t really need anything more than that for their justification. Anything they say is really just a post-hoc justification for their conclusion. If they are confronted and forced to give a justification they don’t have anything really to fall back on other than the vague feeling that they don’t want to wear masks and people are saying they have to. So they their justification will be to articulate this feeling.

Q: Why do the Democrats want you to wear masks?
A: They want to control you.

Q: Why specifically do they want to control you in this way?
A: They just do, that’s what Democrats do. That’s just the way they are, they are all about control.

*Note that this phenomenon is not exclusive to Republicans. It is a fundamental part of human psychology, but recently it has been particularly weaponized by the right with their choose your own reality misinformation campaign.

Spreadnecks.

Your excellent post ties into something I’ve been trying to articulate for a while: A lot of accusations made in politics these days just don’t make sense.

Like the accusation of people trying to use 5G network towers to spread Covid - why would someone want to do that? They gain nothing from it.

Similarly, villains like Democrats (to use your example) wouldn’t want to just control for the sake of control, they’d want to have some specific purpose, right? “Controlling for the sake of controlling” is a motive that only makes any sense to the accuser, but not the slightest shred of sense to anyone else.

TL;DR; to borrow another maxim, “If your opponents’ motives don’t make any sense to you, then it’s probably you who’ve misunderstood things, not them.”

So, I guess you’re saying that the Republican governors’ (so far failed) attempts to overrule local mandates make sense somehow? And, their anti vax mandates positions? And, their pushing of an extremely expensive therapy once you’ve caught COVD rather than pushing hard to get people vaccinated?

Sure, but again, I don’t think that these people bother to think what the motives are, rather than believing some specific motive.

Do the flat earthers think about what the motives are of the people claiming that the Earth is round?
A lot of money is being spent patrolling the ice wall and such…for what gain?

YEC is even worse. The cunning plan of “Evolutionists” is as follows:

  1. Waste entire career doing pretend geology and ignoring evidence of a worldwide flood
  2. ???
  3. Profit! No actually: be damned for eternity

This is so right, and I think shows that CTs are driving a lot of politics these days. Flat Earthers believe that people like Musk who care about their money are willing to spend billions of dollars to keep up the Global Earth hoax. My Flat Earth friend was at least briefly convinced that Russians and Chinese were massing on the Mexican border - while Trump was still president. The logical reasoning that is second nature to you and me is alien to them.

Sure it makes sense. First, it is a power thing. Second, their base is against mandates. Third, many of the places trying to initiate mandates are Democratic strongholds (even in Texas) so they try to hurt the enemy.
Most of them are nominally pro-vaxx but stay quiet because of pushback from their base.

I know the answer to this. My friend thinks the Bible says the earth is flat, so any globers are against god and Jesus.
Yes I know mainstream creationists are at least slightly more rational than this.

Would you like to take this statement back? It’s hard to embrace something you don’t have and have been begging for.

Covax countries were already not getting anywhere near enough, and now the forecast has been slashed by 25%, worsening things.

To wit, Morocco is the most vaccinated country in Africa and less than 50% of adults are vaccinated. Most people have only been offered sinopharm and Astra Zeneca, they have 500,000 pfizer doses for children 12-17 in a country that has 4.2M in that age bracket.

That’s vaccines for 12.5% of the children before they go back to a delayed school start October 1st, in the midst of a Delta outbreak.

12.5%. That’s 1/8th/ If you kept 12.5% of your fingers, you would have 1 finger left…and a tiny stub.

And Morocco is doing the best in all of Africa, as I said. Other countries have 0.6% or 2% or other horrifically low numbers of doses to administer.

It’s not that they’re not embracing vaccinations, it’s the other way around.

Take a look for yourself and see if you can see the color anomaly on the map:

I didn’t read after this, but, yeah. In my life I’ve seen temporary things become permanent things. You take your shoes off at the airport because one guy tried to bomb an airplane in his shoes. So that is now there for all time. I don’t like the new restrictive stuff, walking through metal detectors to go to football games, and I see this new stuff becoming permanent.

And people say that I am crazy for thinking that? Example: the last 100 years.

The one I heard is that ‘they’ want to bring in a Social Credit system like China’s, and vaccine passports are the first step in this.

For the more rational, it’s what @etasyde said: powers given to the government are hard to take away again. Accepting authoritarian measures makes then easier to implement again in the future. And some of the measures taken in Europe really were authoritarian. These are from the first lockdown:

People in Italy are only permitted to leave the house under certain circumstances, including: solitary exercise close to home, going grocery shopping or going to the doctor. They must print out a certificate at home declaring their reason for leaving the house, which will be checked by police. Those who violate the lockdown face fines between €400 to €3,000 ($430 to $3,227) or up to three months in jail.

[In Spain] people are limited to only leaving their homes to go to the pharmacy and grocery shopping. Outdoor exercise is also banned, except for taking a dog on a walk. Hundreds of thousands of police and military personnel are enforcing the lockdown.

[In France] outdoor exercise is only permitted once a day and must be done alone and not exceed one hour. Families are allowed to take walks, but must remain within 1 kilometer (0.6 miles) of their homes. Walking the dog is allowed, although owners must now write down what time they left to make sure it’s within the hour-limit.

Those breaching lockdown rules could face fines between €135 to €3,700 as well as up to six months in prison for multiple violations.

Still doesn’t really explain why people would refuse to wear a mask and get vaccinated, as opposed to resisting mask mandates and vaccine passports.

That’s the real answer- the Republican politicians didn’t ever push mask mandates, masking OR vaccines, while Democratic politicians did all three. So by default, a lot of Republican politicians and by extension, Republican voters latched onto it as some kind of Democrat-thing, and reflexively opposed it.

Then there came a whole lot of stupid around how they rationalized it. Liberty, personal choice, dubious claims of ineffectiveness, “it’s already endemic”, microchips, magnetism, unsafe vaccines, conspiracy theories, etc… all are examples of how they’re trying to rationalize not doing otherwise sane and reasonable things.

And that’s also why IMO, they’re so gung-ho about hydroxychloroquine at first, and now ivermectin. By having a treatment for COVID that doesn’t buy into the “enemy’s” science and treatment, they make COVID less scary and tractable. If they weren’t scared of it, they wouldn’t be coming up with that stuff AT ALL. But it is scary to them and so is having to eat crow and get vaccinated, so they tout this ivermectin nonsense as an approved alternative.

This is the other problem with partisanship - you can’t get anything successfully done unless you can persuade the other side that it’s not a “your side” thing. The only way to get Republicans to buy into masks, distancing, vaccines, etc. was to make it not look like a Democratic thing.

Of course it isn’t a Democratic thing, its a scientific health thing. It wasn’t the Democrats that made it partisan, nor did/do the Democrats want it to be partisan.

It was only partisan because the head of the Republican party had the foresight of a goldfish, and was laser focused on his short term poll number and the Dow Jones to the exclusion of all else. So when bad news comes down the pipe he reflexively pretended it didn’t exist and all his followers reflexively believed him

We don’t wear masks as virtue signalling or to “trigger the pubs”, we do it because we don’t want to die and don’t want anyone else to die. So I don’t know how the Democrat’s could make it not a partisan thing, when we have done nothing to make it partisan in the first place and done everything we can to get the Republicans to accept reality.

Wanted to add a recent article I found on CNN, which was part of report in deep flyover country (self-identified), where they had an interview with an anti-vaxx repub, where it was even more pointed:

“They shafted my President,” Bland said. He thought the vaccine was delayed intentionally to hurt Trump, a baseless claim. “They wouldn’t give it to him because they know damn good and well he’d be reelected, and there’d be nothing nobody could do. So, they had to swindle around and scheme around and keep it from him, and just as soon as the election was over, Bam! There we got it.”

“I’m so bullheaded. You shafted me out of my President. I ain’t taking your medicine,” he said. “I’ll take what they gave him, but I’m not taking yours.”

When reminded Trump had actually urged people to get the vaccine, Bland said he hadn’t seen that.

I found the whole article very interesting, and this is by no means the only reason listed, but it was one we haven’t talked about, a personal F.U. for a political grudge - and the willful blindness that persists in the face of reality which we have.

The amusing thing about this is that for my lifetime and especially now, it’s the Republican Party which is tyring to legislate complete control over people.

It is interesting.

This is slightly off topic but I’m always slightly surprised by the number of “breakthrough cases”. I’m given to wonder - particularly in such an anti-vax community - whether the breakthrough cases actually had the vaccine or just said that to their family and friends (and reporters) subsequently, when they didn’t want anyone saying “told ya so”.

Nope. They are most certainly for mandates. They’re just not for mandates instituted by Democrats.

They are against mandates that makes them do things they don’t want to do like wear masks. They are in favor of mandates that make other people do things that they want them to do, like give birth.