I think that’s unfair. People run to join Palestinian terrorist groups out of a misplaced sense of idealism, from a desire to help an oppressed people. The fact that the Israelis are mostly Jews is largely irrelevant.
Am I remembering wrong, or did some people manage to receive a degree of clemency from courts by claiming to be just following orders? It doesn’t work to absolve yourself of any guilt, but unless I’m wrong I think in some cases it works as a mitigating factor.
To be clear, the RAF (Baader-Meinhof Group) and it’s cousins (example) were primarily concerned with Germany, not Palestine. That being the case, I suspect their activities with Palestinian liberation were more the result than the cause of antisemitism. Either way, carnivorousplant is right to see the antisemitism as ironic.
But they could have been telling him the truth.
Most of the German soldiers were indeed fighting on the Russian front – about 2/3rds of them, as I recall.
Kobal already touched on this point - it’s easy to forget that the main imperative at the end of WWII wasn’t to establish an accurate historical record, but rather to reconstitute functioning nations (so sure, purges, but also reconciliation), and to get the cold war going. So to put it simply, power was more important than truth.
Looking at it today, Germany may have come out of the process with a clearer view of history than a lot of other countries. France for example, more or less integrated the Vichy government into its new power structures, leading to extreme cases like Maurice Papon - Papon went from (well documented) war crimes to a dubious role in the Algerian war, to various massacres as Paris chief of police, and was even a government minister before coming to trial years later.
The US (and other western nations) largely slanted the WWII narrative to make it ‘about’ the holocaust, and ‘good guys vs bad guys’ as opposed to being ‘about’ the struggle between fascism and communism, the collapse of the old guard (international) monarchistic system, and who would hold the power when the dust settled. In the US version, Russia, far from being the biggest part of Germany’s war, pretty much dissappears.
The Balkans war in the 90s was largely a fruit of this failure to address the underlying issues at the end of WWII - Tito made it a priority to (re)constitute the (a) nation, so the Croatian/Nazi genocide against the Serbs (Jasenovac) was insufficiently addressed, the Bosniak Nazi brigades weren’t really prosecuted etc.
So once you’ve determined that the Germans were the ‘bad guys’ and the only victims were Jews, its easy to forget that half of Europe spent the next 40 years living side by side with neighbors who were recently bitter enemies, and war criminals who went unpunished, and were often firmly entrenched in the new power structures. So far from being addressed in the school curriculum, most of these points were/are barely even addressed in polite conversation.
And I’m pretty sure you’ll find similar situations in every country that was occupied - Norway is only just starting to face the less pleasant facts about its war experience, that it wasn’t all Brave Little Norway, that most people weren’t 100% resisters or 100% collaborators, that many young women and particularly their babies were treated shamefully after the war… Knut Hamsun gets a lot of cr@p, and some of it well-deserved, but he also suffers because he’s a symbol people can’t ignore, a symbol of the part of Norway’s war history that most people wish would just go away.
For that matter, how many Americans born after the war learned about the Bund and similar organizations at school? How many didn’t hear about the internment of Japanese-Americans, at least until high school or so?
Germany seems to be remarkably honest, as far as history lessons go. Every nation chooses the stories its children will learn, and sometimes the stories that are left out tell us as much about how a nation regard itself as the stories it chooses to tell…
My grandfather fought in France, mostly retreating actions from the Mediterranean (born in 1925, so he joined the Army in 1943 or so). He was the driver of self-propelled guns, and got two of them shot out from under him by aircraft. His unit was in the process of transferring to the Eastern front when the war ended.
Back in the late 80s, I became acquainted with a German family that had moved into town.
Publicly, they were ashamed of how Germany had acted under Hitler.
Privately (and maybe after more than a few beers), they were kind of proud that fifty years earlier, their country had overrun most of Europe. It wasn’t necessarily the Nazi aspect of the situation, nor did it have anything to do with being pro-Hitler, it was merely some degree of pride that their armed forces had been so successful.
Nonetheless, at least the Germans are aware of what they did during the war. The Japanese are a whole different matter.
I think it’s known to the set who put any thought into it, the same as knowing that Fox News is pretty darn conservative, or the L.A. Times is liberal. I think many proponents of the pledge/patriotism system would even admit that is their goal. I’ve spoken to students of mine, and gotten some of them to envision the same scene in North Korea or some such place. They then admit its pretty much brain washing.
I don’t say the pledge. I think it’s immoral, as it’s swearing loyalty to an unknown government that will someday wave that flag over whatever it’s doing. Do we praise the Germans who did what they were told in WWII, or the ones whose loyalty was greater toward morality?
I would be willing to bet a disportionate number of the survivors were from the western front, though.
Here is a handy chart showing military and civilian deaths of the more or less major players in WWII. For me, one surprise is the percentage of the 1939 population line. I would not have guessed Poland would be on top in that category. I guess that’s what happens when a sheep is caught between a bear and a wolf. Ditto for the Baltic states.
I’m sort of surprised you didn’t already know those songs by heart at that age. I went to an inner-city elementary school too, and we knew them all (except Marines’ Hymn) by second grade. I can’t deny that history for young kids is heavy on indoctrination, either.
We did learn the real history in high school, like Columbus being a complete bastard and so on, though.
Just to jump in real quick on this tangent. I went to high school in the 90s. We didn’t really learn about WWII in any detail until maybe 8th grade. And they made sure to cover that. The internment camps got a huge amount of attention. Covering WWII in general was kinda weak, but they definitely hit on the Bund and the internment camps.
Hey there, thought I’d toss in my $0.02
German here, went to ‘high school’ 95-04 or so. I can tell you, noone who ever paid attention in school has a wrong impression of the war era. Sure, most don’t know the exact details that only some history geeks are interested in, but the basic framework everyone knows about. I think for 5 years straight the history book showed nothing but concentration camps, propaganda posters, pictures of resistance fighters, and stuff like that. The diary of anne frank was a must-read, and when we were not in school (and not on a field trip to a concentration camp) our television happily showed us Indiana Jones fighting against the evil nazis. The only people who didn’t get it are the IQ-below-room-temperature low-lifes that blame themselves being unemployed, uneducated and what-not on other people, mostly immigrants. The attention has shifted a bit from jews to turks and muslims, much as their population percentages have overcome those of jews. So yea, there are a few neo-nazis in germany, but I guess they exist everywhere. At least they make for proper target practice on demonstrations.
Far worse is the situation in Japan, I’ve lived there for 6 months. There is absolutely no critical review of their (war) history. According to their school books (at least until their final year or so) Japan never did anything wrong, and the fallen japanese soldiers are actually heroes that deserve to be enshrined and worshipped (google yazukuni shrine for the controversy about that). I guess that’s why japanese people tend to not like americans that much, while they very much like the germans (this is of course speaking of the older generations, such prejudices only partially were taught the current generation)… It is very irritating to sit outside a starbucks in Kyoto and an 80-year old japanese man stopping, asking where I’m from, and after my reply he started to sing the german hymn. The BAD verse.
Anyhow, there’s been a slight improvement with patriotism. Since the 2006 soccer world cup in germany it’s been okay to have/wave a german flag, and with each tournament it’s getting better. This year, half the cars had a flag around the side mirrors or on the hood. It has become acceptable to enjoy our own country as long as there is a current, valid reason to enjoy it.
I still hate my country, though.
Please excuse bad grammar, I haven’t slept since saturday -.-
Bullshit. My dad survived combat and garrison duty in Germany and NEVER considered the German people bad or evil. The government thereof, and Hitler, and many of his staff, yes. People, no.
I don’t know about other schools but when I went to high school (graduated '07) the showers weren’t used after gym class. Students would have a set of clothes for gym that got washed every few days and maybe a stick of deodorant and a comb. I went to a small school that usually only needed one gym class so it was at the end of the day and you just went home a little stinky and showered there. I don’t mean to generalize but I think very few millenial high schoolers have all that first hand an experience with school showers.
Do Austrian schools teach history in the same way that German schools do? I am thinking that the controversy surrounding Austrian President Kurt Waldheim would have hindered his political career if he hypothetically tried to run for office in Germany.
Correct. Japan isn’t really fond of critical review of any aspect of their own country, especially the war. They think Japan suffered worse than anyone in the war, that the US provoked them, etc.
Please do not put words in the mouths of men you have never met. I do know what my father said, and I have sat and listened to he and his contemporaries talking about the people they met overseas. They had all seen friends killed in combat, and none of them derided any of the soldiers or civilians they had met after the fighting ended.
