This might sound stupid, but I was examining a US map today (doing some political reading); and it occured to me that I’ve always considered Arkansas to be part of “The South” but, not so much Louisiana and Missouri above and below it. Florida in the meantime, I’ve never really considered as part of “The South” although it is obviously among those states geographically.
Loosely I’ve always considered the South to be Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, North and South Carolina, Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky and Arkansas.
What I’m really curious is if this is common to exclude Florida, Louisiana and Missouri but include Arkansas, since this doesn’t make sense geographically, or am I just weird? If it’s common is that because “The South” is more of a description of attitudes/ways of life that Arkansas fits but Florida and Louisiana do not.
So what do you consider to be “The South” and why?
Ummm… have you ever been to Louisiana? Definitely in the south. As far as Florida is concerned, north Florida is definitely “southern.” South Florida is the most southern part of the north.
We have done this one a whole, whole bunch of times. I am from Northern Louisiana and no one ever claimed a day in our lives that we weren’t Southern. We were taught just the opposite both culturally and academically on a daily basis. For that matter, I grew up right on the Louisiana/Texas border and the good citizens of the adjoining areas commingled freely so I also knew for a fact that East Texans are Southern too because I am and they are the same as me.
You are committing a common logical flaw in your OP. The fallacy is to form a stereotypical image of the South and then include and exclude areas that fit the stereotype based upon that preconceived image. The more logical way to do it is to study the region as a whole and relate the different parts together based on what exists their already and to tie those in both culturally and historically. It is true that Southern Louisiana is rather unique to the nation but it is still very much Southern and has contributed a huge amount to Southern history. New Orleans is very different from Charleston, SC but it also has many similarities and both can be weaved into a historical tapestry fairly easily.
That doesn’t get us off the hook completely however. You can try to define the South as the states that joined the Confederacy but South Florida doesn’t fit well under that model. Kentucky seems Southern yet it wasn’t Confederate and both Maryland and Missouri were border states that feel Southern in parts.
In short, the question is impossible to answer. I would include Louisiana along with Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina and others with states that are indisputably Southern. However, you can find strong Southern accents as far afield as Ohio, Indiana, and small parts of California. East Texas is Southern and eastern Oklahoma builds a decent case as well. You can’t define it by state lines except at the extremes. Only the states known as the “Deep South” have a rather unambiguous title to the claim.
My criteria:
-Sweet tea.
-Barbecue.
-Appropriateness of wearing seersucker to the office between Easter and Labor Day.
-Strong Anglo-Celtic and/or African-American heritage.
-Respect for musical and/or literary culture.
-Humidity.
-Recognition of the county as a meaningful socio-governmental entity.
That Labor Day rule is a northern thing. We’ll wear white down here until the temperature drops below 85.
ETA: Louisiana is definitely southern. Hell, residents of LA claim that the rest of the South isn’t southern enough for them. Last time I was down there I saw a girl pumping gas into a 20-year-old pickup truck that had the Confederate battle flag painted on the entire hood.
It can be 102° in New York and you’ll still get “looks” for wearing white. Folks will look right past you walking an ocelot on a leash or wearing knee length Doc Martens and a tutu. But a white male in a white suit and a straw hat will stop 'em.
I guess you are saying “The South” is a region that is not defined by state boundaries, sorta like the Mississippi River Basin, but on a cultural level. Some states are completely in it, other states are partially in it, and other states are completely outside it.
Yes, that is what I am saying exactly. I am from the Deep South and have travelled extensively throughout all Southern states and much of the border ones. Even if you abandon the idea of using state borders, you still can’t just draw firm pencil lines to define the region. There are the core states of the Deep South but then things move into fuzzier gray areas as you move away from them. Much of my family has migrated to the Northwestern, Arkansas region over time. This is where the Ozarks, Wal-Mart headquarters, and the mid-west begin to converge on the rest of Arkansas. If you told my little brother and his wife that they didn’t live in the South anymore, they would be royally pissed. If you told someone else that lived there the opposite, they might take it as obvious and flattering.
As recently as 2000, I was taken by surprise on a few business trips. I had to travel to my company’s call-center right on the Ohio/Indiana border. I’ll be damned if those people didn’t have some of the strongest Southern accents I had ever heard and they even played country music in gas stations and fast food places. They were obviously mid-western but the Southern influence was way stronger than I had ever imagined. Even Cincinnati has some Southern influence.
The South is definitely on the retreat here in Virginia. Outposts of civilization are springing up all over: townhouses, effective mass transit, high-quality shopping markets, and the list goes on.
Having lived in New Orleans and Shreveport, I laugh at the idea that Louisiana isn’t Southern. Oh, South Louisiana might be arguable in places (actually, I’d argue that New Orleans is it’s own planet) but the major difference I saw between Shreveport and Augusta, Georgia was that Shreveport is a bit more Catholic than Augusta, which is intensely Baptist.
I will also agree that the boundaries get really fuzzy, except for Texas, which refuses to be lumped in with anything else. Though East Texas is a lot like northern Louisiana which is definitely Southern. I don’t think they’ll admit it, though.
As ** Shagnasty ** said, there are so many gray areas. You would have a hard time finding a homegrown southern accent in St.Louis but if you travel roughly 60 miles south of the city it is common.
I know Missouri was a border state during the civil war but I don’t know where that line was drawn.
It is kind of funny when I visit customers in Ohio they almost always say something about my accent not sounding southern and being surprised that I was born and raised here.
I’m from Cleveland and I’m in Cincinnati right now. I feel like I’m in “the South.” Everyone has a weird accent and I passed a lot of Waffle Houses on the way down.
I was in Columbus the other day and people had an accent there, too. A little lighter than the accent here, but it was definitely noticeable. It’s creeping me out.
I keep changing my mind about whether to consider Kentucky Southern or not. But Indiana and Ohio are not Southern – no part, no how. The South has an influence, of course. But those are Midwestern states.
I used not to include Missouri and Arkansas, but I now include their people on a voluntary basis. Hillary’s Southern accent is fake though. Louisiana is Southern and part of the Deep South as is Mississipp, Georgia, Alabama and South Carolina.
If you want to see two Southern cities to get a real feel for the South, go to Savannah and Charleston. They are not far from each other, but they are different. Stay in the historic districts of both. Savannah’s historic district is my favorite place in the South just to stroll and be lazy.
Alabama has some of the most beautiful beaches I’ve ever seen. PBS said that the sand really isn’t regular sand but quartz crystals. It’s almost white like sugar.
I know that Northern Florida is more like the rest of the South, but I’ve just never been able to think of any part of Florida as “South.” North Carolina is South, but it’s beginning to lose some of its identity. The Smokey Mountains are so polluted and the Triangle has gotten a little upscale.
Virginia is very Southern although it’s far to the north. I love to take its state roads. Just beautiful. Maryland is up for grabs. I won’t argue with anyone there which ever way they decide. Then Tennessee is Southern. East Tennessee is different from Middle and West Tennessee. They always have been. Very contrary people. More likely to vote conservative in the election. The farmlands of West Tennessee – “the green, green grass of home.”
