Thanks, Chava. Very enlightening. Do Kaballah normally use the tefillin in activities outside of prayer? Also, what are the implications if the person studying Kaballah IS well-versed in the Torah and other traditional Jewish teachings? Are they still considered fringe?
Chaim has already touched on this, but I think I should re-emphasize that this is totally confused. The “ritually unclean” aspects of these laws are not directly connected with the lawsbeing discussed, and are not generally relevant today (they were relevant back during Temple days when sacrifices and certain tithes were only to be eaten in “cleanliness”). Think about it, Chava - if ritual cleanliness were the issue, a man would not touch his daughter. And one woman would not touch another for the same reason. Nothing in this at all.
The basic answer is that any “kaballah leaders” who Maddona might conceivably be hanging around with are without doubt some new-age spiritual gurus that picked up some spooky-sounding “Kaballa” jargon that they can palm off on their followers.
It doesn’t matter if this seems totally confused to you, or if you think it’s no longer relevant. To the people who practice Family Purity, it’s relevant and it makes sense. Women are not made ritually unclean by other women, and neither are animals or objects. And a Jew who observes this law according to halakha would, in fact, not touch his daughter once she became old enough to menstruate. (But see my comment about the school principal in my first post.) I am not making this up, and I am not speculating about what I think people do and believe. I am talking about people I actually know (like my daughter’s Hebrew teacher). I don’t practice this law myself but there are real people who do, and I know some of them.
IzzyR, you are no doubt correct in your assessment of Madonna’s kabala leaders.
Some of the novels of Chaim Potok describe how this law affects people in their everyday lives (The Gift of Asher Lev comes to mind.) Faye Kellerman (police detective novels) also describes it, if you can wade through her stuff.
EchoKitty, the study of kabala is perfectly acceptable to the most traditional Jews for students sufficiently versed in the more basic studies. (The traditional rule is that a man must be 40 before he begins the study of the Zohar.)
I should also say that classes in kabala are a common offering in liberal congregations, and that the people who offer such classes and their students are not regarded as fringe Jews for the most part. There are prominent scholars among Reform Jews who state publicly and loudly that kabala is pure balderdash. (Liberal here means conservative, reform, reconstructionist, Jewish renewal, and even some orthodox congregations.)
As far as I know, even kabalists don’t use tefillin for anything but prayer.
Chava
It doesn’t matter if this seems totally confused to you, or if you think it’s no longer relevant. To the people who practice Family Purity, it’s relevant and it makes sense. Women are not made ritually unclean by other women, and neither are animals or objects. And a Jew who observes this law according to halakha would, in fact, not touch his daughter once she became old enough to menstruate. (But see my comment about the school principal in my first post.) I am not making this up, and I am not speculating about what I think people do and believe. I am talking about people I actually know (like my daughter’s Hebrew teacher). I don’t practice this law myself but there are real people who do, and I know some of them.
IzzyR, you are no doubt correct in your assessment of Madonna’s kabala leaders.
Some of the novels of Chaim Potok describe how this law affects people in their everyday lives (The Gift of Asher Lev comes to mind.) Faye Kellerman (police detective novels) also describes it, if you can wade through her stuff.
EchoKitty, the study of kabala is perfectly acceptable to the most traditional Jews for students sufficiently versed in the more basic studies. (The traditional rule is that a man must be 40 before he begins the study of the Zohar.)
I should also say that classes in kabala are a common offering in liberal congregations, and that the people who offer such classes and their students are not regarded as fringe Jews for the most part. There are prominent scholars among Reform Jews who state publicly and loudly that kabala is pure balderdash. (Liberal here means conservative, reform, reconstructionist, Jewish renewal, and even some orthodox congregations.)
As far as I know, even kabalists don’t use tefillin for anything but prayer.
Chava
You can repeat it as many times as you want but that does not make it true. You are spreading ignorance here.
The people who practice family purity do not do so because the laws of becoming “ritually unclean” are still relevant - they do it because the Bible specifically prohibits sexual contact under these circumstances - that is still quite relevant. The fact that a person who violates this becomes ritually unclean themselves is not directly related (though I imagine it has some theological connection).
Your statement that “Women are not made ritually unclean by other women, and neither are animals or objects” is false (you are correct about animals and some types of objects). And this: “And a Jew who observes this law according to halakha would, in fact, not touch his daughter once she became old enough to menstruate” is utterly rediculous.
Seriously, as you are clearly ignorant of these matters and basically have no idea of what you are talking about, I would suggest that you refrain from putting forth any more “facts” about these matters.
The answer to this (and many other questions just like this) is that Halacha is not (just) a moral guide - it is a legal system. Rules are put in place for whatever reason, and are to be followed under all circumstances. This is common of all legal systems. If you have a system under which anyone can decide whether the law should apply to this circumstance base on interpretations of the law’s intent, pretty soon the law will cease to have any meaning. Similarly, if you exceed the speed limit in broad daylight with no traffic in sight, you will not beat the rap because it was safe under your particular circumstance. If you practice medicine without a license you will not beat the rap no matter how competent you are. In this particular instance, there is no specific rule against handshaking - it fits under a general category that includes all social touching, which in some cases can be arousing.
Okay, I think both Chava and Izzy are Jews…the question is, Orthodox, Reform? I take it you can be as varied on these things as the different flavors of Christian can be varied on their rules and regs. I’ve sort of hijacked my own thread, but I like where the conversation is going, so if no one minds, I’d like to follow this thread to its natural death.
Izzy is Orthodox, as am I.
I can’t say what type Chava is. What I can say is that she’s wrong on this issue, and Izzy and I are right. The purity matters related to mentruation (and, for that matter, are true for men’s semen as well) are relevant only in the context of the not-currently-extant Holy Temple. The term “family purity” for the sexual regulations that govern relations between husband and wife during menstruation obscure this.
Fact: Jewish law does not forbit physical contact between father and daughter or between mother and son, regardless of the female’s menstrual state.
If the reason for the prohibition on physical contact between strangers of the opposite sex were menstruation-related, that would not be the case.
Chaim Mattis Keller
Well, now you’ve got me confused. I am hearing that it is NOT okay to touch ANY female, even FAMILY, when she is menstruating. But many people don’t practice it.
If not, what is the not touching thing about?
(Sorry…I’m having a rough comprehension day) Type verry slloowwwly.
Ok, here’s today’s lesson:
Three separate issues.
-
The touch of a menstruating woman (as well as that of numerous others types of people, as Chaim points out) will transfer a “ritual uncleanliness” to any Jewish person of either gender. Also to food and utensils. This was primarily relevant back during the days of the Temple. This, because there are rules against eating meat from sacrificial offerings, as well as certain types of tithes (or entering the Temple site) when in an impure state. Back in those days, the more religious people were careful to remain in a “pure” state whenever possible. Today, these laws have largely fallen by the wayside, both because there are no sacrificial offerings, and because being in the same room as a corpse also renders someone “impure” in a manner that can only be rectified by a certain type of sacrifice, which is no longer available. So everyone is impure anyway.
-
There is additionally a prohibition against sexual relations with a woman who is in a menstrual status. This is very much relevant today, and is what Chava refers to when she speaks of “Family Purity”.
-
Social physical contact between men and women is prohibited due to arousal reasons, as Chaim pointed out.
There may be some value in point out that there are various types of laws.
The basis of halakhah are the 613 mitzvot - commandments - that are found in Torah, the first five books of the Bible. They are unalterable.
A gezeirah is a law created by the rabbis of old to prevent people from accidentally violating a Torah mitzvah - a good and commonly-used analogy is that a gezeirah can be considered a “fence” around the commandments. For example, the commandment prohibits cooking the flesh of the calf in the milk of its mother. But what if a slatternly housemaid were to fail to propoerly clean the dishes? Unknowingly, you might mix the flesh of the calf from lunch with the milk of its mother in the form of your cheese at dinner. To avoid this, kosher households use one set of dishes for dairy meals, and another for meat. Two sets of dishes are not technically mandated in the Torah, but the rule provides a safety net to insure that the Torah’s law is not violated.
Then there is the takkanah, a rule instituted by the rabbis, such as the lighting of the candles at Hanukhah, which is never so much as mentioned in Torah.
All of these are binding on observant Jews.
Being a Roman Catholic myself, I suppose the following statement will have little probative effect, but cmkeller and IzzyR are correct. There is no generally accepted halakhic rule that forbids physical contact between father and daughter or between mother and son, regardless of the menustral cycle involved at the time.
I will toss a bone to Chava and say that I suppose it is possible that a certain community has a such a minhag - a locally observed custom - but I am unaware of any such, and would appreciate a cite.
- Rick
Just my small addition to echokitty’s question about breaking a rule to save a life. Not only is it allowed, not only is it mandated, but the more learned you are the more it must you to take the responsibility to do it. A rabbi should not send a student, or a nonJew who would not be breaking a law, to drive someone to the hospital on the Sabbath, he must do it himself. I love the reasoning, which to paraphrase went like this. The Torah says You shall obeys the laws and live by them (not the exact quote I am sure) but it says live by them, not die by them.
I am not Orthodox; I was raised in a Reform congregation and now attend a Conservative one. The non-Jewish public here can see from this thread that the Laws of Family Purity are not well appreciated even by many Jews. I, for one, had never heard of them until a few years ago. Yet, I can appreciate their value. Nothing like keeping a fruit forbidden, at least some of the time, to keep it so very desired in a long term relationship. The extreme modesty practiced by some observant orthodoxim allegedly makes for some very passionate monogamy. (All jokes about Jewish wives aside… beige, we’ll paint the ceiling beige.)
The non-Jewish public may also appreciate the historic and symbolic relationship of the mikveh to the Christian practice of baptism.
To those who would still see the handshake refusal as a slap, let me make another example. A Hindu realtor is at a business party, Joe offers him some deviled eggs, he takes it. Sally offers him a meatball, he refuses. Is this a slight because you find the dietary law prohibiting the eating of cow flesh to be archaic?
Well, thanks to all of you! I find religious customs and laws to be fascinating, to say the least. And the Family Purity thing is actually pretty ingenious (although that extra five days thing HAS to suck!).
Now…the 613 (approx.) laws that must be followed. Like, what kind of stuff does this entail? Is it relating to prayer or is it everyday stuff like the two-sets-of-dishes thing (no chili cheese-dogs for you!);j
Also, are most Jews strict or relaxed?
EchoKitty:
It does, trust me. The best solution my wife and I have found is perpetual pregnancy and nursing. Bleeding only about 5 weeks out of a year! (your mileage may vary) ;j
It includes both categories, and many more besides. There are, strictly from the Bible (not counting Rabbinical “fences” and decrees like Bricker mentioned), 365 prohibitions, and 248 positive commandments. However, many of these are common-sensical (e.g., do not murder), situational (e.g., things to be done in the Temple), or seasonal (e.g., the specifics of holiday observance, like Passover) so it’s not quite as burdensome as the large number would make it sound.
I’d have to say that at this point in time, there are more non-Orthodox Jews than Orthodox, therefore more “relaxed” (though often simply ignorant of what Torah law entails) than strict ones.
Chaim Mattis Keller
Oh I can’t resist
No, that wouldn’t be allowed either.
Sometimes we relaxed ones are ignorant, sometimes we believe that the Torah is more a metaphoric truth than a literal one. I’ll respect your take, you respect mine. 
DSeid:
Of course; no disrespect was intended toward those who so believe. Please note that I said often ignorant, not “ignorant” or even “mostly ignorant.” Surely you agree that a large number of non-practicing Jews have never had any form of Jewish education at all.
Chaim Mattis Keller
I know that you did not intend to disrespect those of us Jews who observe differently (which really isn’t always the same as non-practicing) and of course you are right to a large part. I am as ignorant about lots of this as you are informed … and this is after religious school through High School. Add into that the large number of Jews I know who have had either no religious education or just enough to scrape by their share in thier B’nai Mitzvah Service and are now High Holiday Jews at best, and obviously what you say is mainly true.
Nevertheless I can’t help but make the reminder that the non-Orthodoxim among us also consider our version of practice and our interpretation of Torah to our lives as valid. Some take their non-Orthodox version as seriously as many Orthodoxim take theirs. (Yeah, okay, “a few”)
End hijack
By the way – in answer to EchoKitty’s question: here is one version of the list of 613 mitzot, compiled originally by the Rambam.
Many of these, as cmkeller suggests, are not applicable today to a Jew living in the United States. Interestingly, some authorites regard living in Israel as a mitzvah; others do not.
One source I studied at length, the Chafetz Chayim, claimed that of the 613, there were 271 mitzvot that could be observed by a Jew living outside Israel.
- Rick
Bricker: How did it come about that you acquired the knowledge about Judaism that you have?
Wow. Do people memorize it all, or do they refer to the list a lot? Also, why can’t you eat meat from the thigh? I take it the leg o’ lamb is not the kind of lamb they eat, huh? I must say, it looks like they take pretty good care of widows. But a lot of them didn’t look practical – then or now. And the one about not eating limbs of a live animal, well NO SHIT! I had no idea there was a problem with that! 
WOW Rick. Wotta link.
So Izzy and Chiam, after looking over that list, I am, if judged by compliance, a very poor excuse for a Jew. I can’t offer an apostate some of the Paschal Lamb or store any leftovers. But what if my JewBu cousin is over for the holiday? And the leftovers are the best part! And no human forms for decorative purposes? The rapist can’t divorce his victim? I never knew that these were the 613! Is this list accurate and who actually follows some of them which really do seem out of place in today’s world (like not crossing species, I just know that some Orthodox are biologists who have worked in developing new breeds, especially with many in reproductive biology) Or are some Orthodoxim ignorant of what they really are as well?
(I don’t mean to be antagonistic, I am really just wide-eyed at that list, and really, seriously, wonder how Orthodoxim interpret many of them in today’s world, because I know that it cannot be literally.)