So an Israeli bloke at work asked me out for dinner + drinks, and I’m absolutely over the moon about it. Only thing is that we don’t work in the same department and have hardly spoken, so all I know is that he’s 1) lovely, 2) an Israeli who’s lived in this country for at least three years, 3) considers himself agnostic.
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(This is fairly TMI in a Womanly Fashion. Consider yourself forewarned.)
Observant Orthodox Jews are not permitted to have sexual intercourse with menstruating women, correct? What about less conservative varieties of Judaism? Are even Orthodox Jews permitted to touch (nonsexually) or kiss a menstruating woman, or is this forbidden too? Even though this fellow considers himself agnostic, he tells me that he’s culturally Jewish, and naturally he would be, having lived in Israel for the greater part of his life. And most probably I will be, how do you say, in need of the Tampax during our lovely evening together. On the one hand, I really, really don’t want to do anything disrespectful of his culture. On the other hand, it would be completely silly to shriek out preemptively, “Don’t kiss me, I’m menstruating!”, when really he mightn’t have the vaguest notion of doing any such thing, and it wouldn’t be a problem even if he had. So, uh, advice?
While I wouldn’t be much help regarding you other questions, I’ll answer this one: Orthodox Jewish men are forbidden to touch a woman they’re not married to (or closely related to, as parents or siblings) regardless of whether or not they are menstruating. (Obviously there are exceptions to this rule for doctors and the like.)
If the man and woman are married, it is forbidden for him to touch her from when she starts menstruating until she has finished bleeding, waited seven days, and immersed in a mikvah (ritual pool).
If he’s an agnostic/secular Jew, this will not be an issue, especially considering that he asked out a non-Jew. Please don’t embarrass yourself by making any further silly assumptions based on what you have heard about Jewish people. He’s just like anyone else you may know.
Experience speaking here, I dated a “cultural Jew” for five years, ultimately, his “religious Jew” came out. He could not stand up to his parents and marry a shiksa. Just be careful.
Whee! I am a new member!
cmkeller, Auntbeast, thank you kindly for your advice.
…okay? Knowing as I did that Orthodox Jews cannot have sexual intercourse with a menstruating woman, I don’t think it was out of line for me to inquire whether similar taboos might also be operative for Jewish folks who are less conservative. The last thing I want to do is something blatantly offensive to someone else’s culture at a first meeting. I’m sorry if you think this is disrespectful; that was far from my intent.
Who said anything about disrespect or your question being out of line? You are reading way too much into my answer. I’m telling you that you will look silly if you make other assumptions like this with your date. I’m trying to help. Take my advice or leave it.
If I were to have a date with an Italian woman and started asking questions about the Mafia, I would look foolish. Get it?
If he’s going on a date with a non-Jewish woman to a restaurant that doesn’t have a kosher certification (unless it does and you just didn’t mention it) AND he says he’s agnostic, I think he can probably be put into the “what he doesn’t know won’t hurt him” category with regard to your womanly parts. I suppose he could be a little more likely to find sex during menstruation kinda icky than guys raised in the US, but you won’t have to worry about that unless the date goes REALLY well.
Actually, now I see the confusion. I didn’t mean you shouldn’t ask questions like that here. I meant that you shouldn’t make those assumptions around him. As I said earlier, if he is romantically interested in a non-Jew, he certainly won’t be worried about arcane laws followed only by the most religious. He well might not even have heard of them. He’ll let you know if there is a problem.
On the other hand, if a guy refused to touch you because you were “unclean” just because if you were on the rag, you could get pissed of at his narrow-minded misogyny. Unless you fancied him. Or something.
Speaking as a non-Orthodox Israeli guy, I have to admit that the idea of vaginal sex during menstruation does seem pretty icky. But anything up to that is cool.
To clarify why it was ok to date a shiksa, but not marry one. Jews believe that the religion is passed down through the mother, in order to be a proper Jew, your mother must be. You father can be Al Pacino and you would still be Jewish. We had a friend from Israel, who, although HE considered himself a Jew, lamented often that very many, more orthodox folks, did not.
Rumor has it, that the rule was changed a bagillion years ago to keep Jewish men from marrying outside their race/culture/religion.
OT: Jew sounds like it’s a bad word, never have been comfortable using it. Much prefer Jewish, but it gets awkward. Is it just me?
This is still true for the Othodox and Conservative but not necessarily for Reform.
This doesn’t make sense. If your mother is Jewish, you would be considered Jewish by any Orthodox sect that I have ever heard of. They may try to pressure you to become more relgious but they would never, ever not consider you Jewish (but maybe not Jewish enough.) Religious law is very clear on that.
Incorrect. This is because in the days before DNA, you could know with certainty who the mother was but not the father. Things have changed now and most Reform Rabbis would consider anyone with a Jewish father/Gentile Mother to be Jewish if they practiced the religion.
‘Jew’ is only a ‘bad word’ if it’s used as an adjective or a verb (e.g. ‘Jew lawyer’, ‘Jew money’ or ‘to Jew down’). It is the noun - ‘Joseph Lieberman is a Jew’. It’s not offensive! ‘Joseph Lieberman is Jewish / a Jewish man’ is fine of course, but unnecessary.
I think people worry about this a lot - I’m not sure why.
I think what AuntBeast is saying is that her friend’s mother isn’t Jewish; therefore, his Orthodox friends didn’t consider him to be Jewish, regardless of his practices or beliefs.
Oh. In that case, he would actually have to go through an Orthodox conversion to be considered Jewish by them. A Reform conversion wouldn’t even be good enough.
IF they are shomer negiah (spelled incorrectly, probably). Good friends of mine are Orthodox but not shomer negiah, so the husband and I don’t worry about contact.
Full observance of the laws of niddah (family purity- no sex during menstruation and all that) is very, very rare in non-Orthodox Jews, even those of us who are religious. I’m a Conservative Jew (which is the middle-of-the-road branch between Orthodox and Reform), and I’d be astonished to find a Conservative Jew who did that (then again, it’s not a subject that generally comes up in everyday conversation). I don’t know of any non-Orthodox Jewish men who won’t touch a woman who isn’t a relative, either.
He might avoid ordering some foods, which is something you should be aware of if it’s a restaurant where you’d expect to share dishes (a Chinese restaurant, a pizza place, or something like that). A lot of people who are more or less culturally Jewish (and may not consider themselves religious) will still avoid pork, some will avoid shellfish. He probably won’t expect you to do anything like that unless it is a restaurant that serves family-style, though. Then again, he might not care- I was introduced to moo shu pork by a non-religious Jewish guy I dated in college.
