What does a political "conservative" believe today?

My experience on these boards over the years is that “fiscal conservatives” was a dog whistle to get rid of “bad” spending like welfare, SNAP, medicade, whilst supporting things like unfunded medicare prescriptions, bloating the military budget, etc.

Apologies, but I have a degree in Economics, had a class with Dr. Schnell (a Reagonomics presidential advisor), worked in investment banking for most of the 1990’s, and find it a complete mischaracterization to claim that Keynes would be considered a fiscal conservative. Keynes would be “fiscally responsible” (and not conservative).

Question: Which one of these is fiscally “conservative” and which is “responsible.”
Option A: “cut tax and spend” or
Option B: “raise taxes and spend”

I was putting that in terms of modern tax & spend policies. I would think that anyone who supports saving money for bad times would be considered today a fiscal conservative. Also, those that today claim to be Keynesians are not since they do not support saving money in flush times. Honest question for you then: when did Keynesian start to mean government spending to the level we have today?

As I said above, an advocate of balanced budgets would be a fiscal conservative by today’s standards.

I think the most important thing is to differentiate between conservative, republican, and the MAGA flavor of politics.

“Conservative” historically means someone who wants to leave the reigns of power wherever they are. (Or where they “belong”/ were before the latest insult to common sense)

The ideological roots are from (against!) the (French) revolution. Conservatives then were arguing Louis belonged in power.

Republicans come from (as their name suggests) from roots that cannot be called “conservative”’ in any meaningful way. Through the years they have moved very, very far from those roots. Now they are openly flirting with the very antithesis of their name and have become truly conservative.

The crux of being “conservative” is a tendency to think that those in power “belong”’ there.

Sounds right to me, but I was not politically aware enough at the time to parse things in that way.

Even if that were the case, it doesn’t apply to today’s MAGA. They didn’t want Obama or Biden to stay in power when they were already there. By that standard I think we’d have to go back to Reagan and Eisenhower, since the reasons they want Trump in power are many, but “he’s already in power” isn’t really one of them.

The mindset is not about individuals.
It is about making sure rich white old men hold the reigns.

Like Biden?

OK, you’re both veering off-topic, drop this side bit.

Moderating:

Again, “fiscal conservative” is a loaded term that does not mean fiscally responsible. A long term poster Sam Stone taught me that. Literal reading the term “fiscal conservative” makes it sound responsible, instead of an excuse to cut social welfare to benefit the rich.

A “fiscal conservative” does not support saving money for bad times. Exhibit A, every time in the last 40+ years there has been a Republican President and/or congressional majority.

Again, increasing taxes for more spending is a lot more fiscally responsible vs cut taxes and increase spending. Cite please for Keynesian economists that do not support saving money in flush times to either pay down the debt or save for the future. Maybe I’m an old fuck, and Universities no longer teach the traditional Keynesian economics I studied in the early 1980’s. Or you’re parroting some populist conservative talking points on economics.

Ditto. Cite please that Keynesian economists supported growing the government to the size we are today? Or a better way of phrasing it, who’s watch did all the unfunded spending increases and associated debt level increases come under like Reagan’s military buildup, Bush’s unfunded Medicare increases or Trumps huge tax giveaway. It wasn’t Keynesian economists leading the charge on these items.

I think it’s relevant to discuss the blend of radical and conservative that the Republicans have concocted since (at least) Gingrich.

“We’ll overthrow the established (Democratic) order. Then we’ll fix things so we stay in power forever, like we’re supposed to.”

MAGA has livened it by refusing to accept election results.

MAGA is now more than 20% of the current Republican party, true, but early on in the 2016 primary process Trump was winning primaries by pluralities, not majorities. The size of the primary - I think they were up to 17 declared at one point, and still over a dozen by the time of Iowa - meant that Trump had one very wide lane all to himself, and none of the other contenders wanted to attack him in hopes that they could pick up his endorsement when his campaign “inevitably” petered out. He had a great deal of strength as a second choice candidate when others began dropping out, and he consolidated the party’s support between clinching the nom and the convention. Steadfast support from the right wing propaganda arm has converted more Republicans to MAGA - probably at least 2/3rds of the party by now - but things were very different in 2016.

This is the best answer I can come up with. My wife’s family is largely conservative Trump supporters, but there isn’t anything particularly consistent or indeed intelligent about their political ideology. Same with many of my conservative social media friends (usually former coworkers or classmates).

But if I can point to some perceived trends:

Conservatives hate paying taxes. Republicans = lower taxes, Democrats = higher taxes
Conservatives love America. Republicans = America is awesome, Democrats = always criticizing America
Conservatives distrusts foreigners. Republicans = other countries suck. Democrats = sucking up to foreign interests and letting all the immigrants in
Conservatives believe in hard work. Republicans = honest hard working folk. Democrats = overeducated and pretentious elites

That’s the best I can figure. It’s not like these are informed, intelligent people. You can’t really have a reasonable discussion with them because it’s all very “tribal”. Like talking someone out of liking the Jets or the Patriots.

The main belief, at least the one they’re willing to state plainly, is phrased as “small government”.

Upon further analysis it becomes that the definitions of “small” and “government” have no real objective meaning; they’re more intended to express sentiments about the role of government. “Small” means “carries minimal tax burden”, and “government” tends to be measures intended to promote the general welfare.

If we’re talking about the size of the military, no size or expense is considered “small”, the expenditure is judged to be appropriately sized because it serves conservatives’ favored ideas about the role of government. You can see a similar disparity in sentiment toward military aid to some countries (i.e. South Korea) and opposition to others (Ukraine), none of that is related to the size of the expenditure, it’s all about ideological alightment.

OTOH the Department of Education only consumes a tenth of the DoD’s expenditure, yet it’s considered massively over-bloated because conservatives hate what that department represents. Conservatives would prefer to have education responsibilities devolved on the states so that certain states can neglect, corrupt, or entirely ignore such responsibilities.

Which brings us to the other tenet - a commonly expressed rationale for this is “states’ rights” or “local control” which is often flatteringly portrayed as a desire for states to be a laboratory to learn which policies work and don’t work, but in reality tend to be a strategy for states to determine the minimal number of civil rights they can get away with extending to their residents.

The canonical example of course is slavery, a war on human rights which was (and still widely is) justified under the banner of “states rights”. Chattel slavery is of course gone, but looking at the status of civil rights, economic achievement, and quality of life in the more right-wing states, we can see that “states rights” is usually a vehicle for certain states to unequally restrict the rights of some of its citizens. Though slavery is declared unconstitutional (adjudicated by combat, it must be pointed out), former slave states have never given up on the project of inequality and apartheid, and the doctrine of “states rights” or “states sovereignty” is understood to the the theory required to achieve this.

I of course have little idea what conservatives actually believe, because they cloak their intent in the transparently obvious ruses described above. They understand that their intent must be obfuscated because it recruits little support when stated openly (at least prior to 2016). I suspect they have no consistent inner beliefs except for their own right to power and privilege. But “small government” and “states rights” are how American conservatives tend to describe their beliefs.

I think this is likely correct. Take your mention of supporting state or local government. That’s all good until the state happens to be California or the local government happens to be the city of San Francisco. The same goes for those other things you mention.

Ultimately, I think conservatives, at least as represented by MAGA, are short sightedly selfish. They refuse to accept the “rising tide lifts all boats” theory of human progress.

Which is weird because this is the exact theory that was advanced in order to justify Reaganism’s trickle-down economics, and nobody bothers with it anymore.

Was this continuity or change? I don’t think it’s a change in belief, just a radical change in rhetoric. They were never really concerned about “all boats”. Back then it was necessary to pretend to care about everyone, so they didn’t. Nobody ever really bought it, so they dropped the mask.

It’s a little of both. It’s a continuity from the point of view of the rank and file MAGA voter, who were the ones wearing the mask that came off in 2015. But Reagan was obviously not Trump. Yes, he did things that were wrong, but as Hillary Clinton might say, he was wrong within normal parameters. He was definitely not a closeted MAGA wearing a conservative mask. He was the true conservative that the OP is looking for. It was just (some of) his voters that weren’t.

ETA. And by way of possibly explaining our present predicament, my guess is a fair number of those closeted MAGAs were probably voting D before Reagan.

The number of classical conservatives has dwindled over the past decade as they got themselves primaried by the MAGA movement. Those that remain still believe:

  • Every tax increase makes Baby Jesus cry.
  • Those who have money got that way because of their moral and/or intellectual superiority
  • It is unfair to force the wealthy to support those less deserving
  • The Laffer curve is real and cutting taxes increases government revenue
  • Environmental regulations stand in the way of the superior people getting as much money as they should

All the social order stuff I don’t think they really care about. For decades they’ve learned that paying lip service against abortion and gun control gains them easy votes and those easy votes keep them in power. Ditto for gay marriage, until say 10 years ago. Republicans would put anti gay marriage proposals on state ballots to drive up their vote, until society changed and they needed new boogeymen. Thus the anti-trans obsession. Yeah, boys are changing their genders for the sole purpose of getting into girls restrooms and/or playing girls sports. But whatever floats the boat. It’s all misdirection- while they’re holding up social issues with their right hand, they’re gutting the social safety net and environmental regulations and giving tax breaks to billionaires with their left.

Everything conservatives stand for boils down to two things: money and power. They tolerate a criminally insane half wit as president as long as he turns out his base for them and keeps those right wing judges and tax cuts coming. Better to have a dictator on their side than roll the dice and let the opposition have a chance.

I think what some are missing is the active effort to court the religious vote in the late 70s and early 80s. 23% of the country identifies as evangelical, and in recent years have demanded the Republicans put up. They want seriously conservative social policies.

The religious right was courting Republicans at least as much as the Republicans were courting them.

Nah. Lower right quadrant is largely still voting for Trump, because he has an R after his name. Lower left is former D voters who wanted economic populism; in a multi-party system you could have a left-populist party that would appeal to them, but I don’t think the Dems are going to do that. Plus Trump won low information voters, who don’t really have a consistent position on the diagram. They could easily switch away from him.


What do social conservatives believe? I’m not an American, and there are various different groups with different beliefs, but I can take a stab at it:

  • Society is fragile and easily broken, therefore we should avoid making big changes and experiments. Too many changes of the sort demanded by progressives risk societal collapse.
  • People mostly succeed due to merit, and interfering with that will damage institutions and make them less effective.
  • People should care more about, and they owe more to, those closest to them. Most about family and than friends, and more about fellow citizens than foreigners.
  • There’s a way to live that is healthy (godly for the religious), and deviating from this will in the long run make individuals less happy and be bad for society. And that way is generally monogamous marriage, ideally with children. Anything else is disapproved of.
  • On crime, the rights of law abiding people and victims of crime should be prioritised over those of criminals.

There’s probably more, but I can’t think of them right now.