What does God want with a Starship, or God's interest in man

It’s always seemed to me that Kirk’s question hints at a more interesting and meaningful question, which is, “what does God want with worship?”

What could an omnipotent being gain from a worshiped/worshiper relationship with humans? How is this method of interaction more beneficial than, say, a chummy sort of pallsy relationship? At some point, God must have decided, “hey, I think the best way for things to be is for people to worship me, to build temples and make sacrifices and so forth.” Can we wonder at the reasoning behind this, or is it ineffable?

So, humorous title nonwithstanding, what can God possibly gain out of man’s worship of him. Conversely (and because I’m sure it will be brought up), if the answer is, “because it’s best for man to have that relationship with God,” then what does man gain from a worshipful relationship that he wouldn’t get from a different sort of relationship with an all-powerful creator?

Full disclosure: I am an athiest, but I’d like to discuss this within the framework of of the Judaeo-Christian belief system. This is not about whether or not God exists, but rather about understanding the dynamics of the relationship between God and mankind, assuming there is one.

Nothing, unless we assume the omnipotent has horrible psychological problems. It would be like me demanding the worship of bacteria, only more so.

Nothing good. One of my objections to religion is that I find the idea of worshiping anything to be rather twisted and self destructive.

I am a Christian. I don’t know what God gains out of our worship of Him, if anything. Many a standup comedian has noted that it seems that God has a lack of confidence, but that’s not it. I believe that God created the universe, and everything in it (for reasons that I don’t pretend to understand). Consequently, our understanding of God can only be as good as He wants it to be. And since none of us understand God, particularly His motives, He must want it that way. I could be wrong, but in my gut I feel that my analysis is pretty valid. So the answer to your question is that I don’t know, but I don’t think it’s a question we’re supposed to know. We’re just supposed to accept that God has an interest in imperfect humanity and be thankful and worship Him as a result.

Well, if we assume that God is omnibenevolent, and that he is also the personal incarnation of an absolute moral “good” (which humans may or may not understand), then worshipping him is the quickest route to salvation for the human race- something he desires (omnibenevolent, again).

Non-questioning obedience is no doubt very gratifying to the church elders, who depend upon it for the continued financial solvency of their institution.
Not only do we not know why God needs to be worshipped, we’re not even sure what we get out of it.
I wouldn’t liken it to being worshipped by bacteria, but my yellow lab sure seems to worship me. And why not? I feed her, keep her shots up to date, curry her, exercise her and love her dearly. Of course, even that analogy doesn’t hold up because I didn’t create her or her species, and while I have the power to destroy her, I cannot resurrect her or heal her or any of the other things God reportedly can do.
But rather than assuming God has an insecurity complex that can be ameliorated only by worship, I’d think God had simply earned the worship, by virtue of his having created all that is, was and ever shall be.
If God actually existed, that is. But I know he doesn’t because I have special knowledge, and I’ll share it with you if you send me money.

Including all the evil and suffering. Shouldn’t we blame God for doing such a bad job, instead of worshiping him ?

Not to mention, worship is so extreme. I know my parents made me, yet I never built an altar to Mom and Dad and sacrificed animals to them.

Well, I’m convinced that the “God as Celestial Dad” concept comes from the parenting experience, and have often wondered what kind of God would have been invented by people who didn’t have to spend a couple of decades raising each child. On the other hand, one of my favorite Episcopal priests once theorized that the reason we humans need so long to raise our kids is so we’ll have a better idea of what we put God through.

By the way, an apology to Mayo Speaks for being so damn snotty in my reply. Rarely have I seen the statement of Christian faith stated so simply, honestly and unapologetically. You didn’t deserve the slap. :o Just because I’m an atheist doesn’t mean I have to be an asshole. I am sorry.

But then God would have had to set up the situation where the quickest route to salvation is worship. Wouldn’t it be better for the human race for the quickest route to be good works? Praying in church never cured the sick or fed the hungry - should the miser who worshipped every day get saved before the man who spent his life helping others but who never worshipped? And if you think the miser is not worshipping truly, why should the man who does good works and worships get an edge on the man who does good works and doesn’t?

And, Mayo Speaks!, is there something in your post beyond “God just is that way?” That’s a fine answer, but it doesn’t really address the OP.

The question reminds me of an episode in the extended Dinsdale family history.

Several years back Ms. D’s sister invited our whole clan of heathens to attend Easter services at her family’s Lutheran church (her husband was playing music in the service), before repairing to her home for dinner. The service stuck us as silly at best, and way too long. But we made an effort of being polite and responded to her repeated requests for our opinion of the services, with “It was nice. Good music. Pass the ham, please.”

After the umpteenth query, I asked what I thought a modest question - Namely, “Why did God wish to be worshipped, with all those people dressing up and gathering in that big fancy church, instead of spending their money and time doing good deeds for an hour or two on Sundays?”

I guess my question was deemed especially inappropriate because I asked it within the hearing of her teenage children. I guess their dinner conversations must be a little different from those that take place in casa Dinsdale. She didn’t speak to my wife for over a year.

Aah, that year was a peaceful time…

Get with the program, Der Trihs- all suffering in the world is due to human failings (not least those of Adam, whose Fall made the world the dark and dismal place it is today). God wants us to do good and worship him, but we keep letting him down- thus earthquakes (like Lisbon- was is 185something?) and so forth.

WHAT? You don’t honour your father and your mother? Are there no commandments you follow?! Heathen. :smiley:

Playing Angel’s Advocate (as I have throughout), maybe worshipping God is (in his construction) as intrinsic a good as helping others (or higher, for that matter). All morality outside of belief systems is arbitarily defined*, so why can’t it be arbitarily defined in a belief system? For all we know, God just chose to make it that praying for his good graces is more soul-polishing than feeding orphans. For that matter, if you accept heaven et al, this makes sense- the orphan’s hunger is ephemeral, but Hell is eternal. Plus, of course, New Testament God puts lots of focus on good works and prayer being less important than practice (see the parable of the old woman who gives a single copper piece- as a huge piece of her income- next to the Pharisee who pours gold that means nothing to him into the temple accounts). I think that if you accept God and all, you just have to accept prayer as an intrinsic good as valid as other good works- not least because it reminds you of the Truth of the Beard in the Sky.

*This doesn’t make it worse- give me a scientific humanist over a staunch Catholic any day- but we should at least recognise its constructed nature.

The problem is that good works are superficial. The heart has to lead before the body will follow. So I think that one of the reasons for worship is to get the heart in the right place.

Since I’m a Buddhist, I don’t do the worship thing, but a lot of what I do has to do with opening the heart. By that, I don’t mean getting all lovey-dovey; I mean cultivating an appreciation for the way life goes, both the good and the bad. Through that, one gets a number of benefits, one of which is the ability to love better, another of which is greater courage (derived from the Latin for heart, of course). I think that worship of a god can get you to that place.

So…wasting energy on worship is a way to encourage people to do good things? Why not just skip the “getting the heart ready to lead the body” and skip straight to the good deeds that I’m perfectly willing to do?

-Joe

[QUOTE=kelly5078]
The problem is that good works are superficial. The heart has to lead before the body will follow. /QUOTE]

Wait a second…I cant let something this stupid go without a second comment.

Good works are superficial? So, your belief is the opposite of “Actions speak louder than words”?

-Joe

Perhaps God doesn’t want or need to be worshipped. Perhaps he asks to be worshipped only because it is necesssary or useful for us humans?

This seems to be the simplest explanation.

Merijeek: I’m not quite sure what I’ve said to cause such a hostile reaction. There is certainly nothing wrong with doing good deeds, other than the always-present risk of unintended consequences. And since I don’t worship, I obviously don’t feel that worship is a necessity. I was merely trying to explain what some people get out of worship. And I doubt very seriously that it’s a waste of their time.

As to

there is really no wisdom in that commonplace. I doubt that humanity would have gotten very far without words.

Who said anything about how humaity would do withot words?

I take issue with the sentiment that “actions are superficial”.

-Joe

Then you misunderstand me, probably because I didn’t express myself well enough. So I’ll try again.

I do not believe that actions without the heart (which, yes, is really the mind) being in the right place are of much use. You can momentarily be inspired to do a kind act, possibly by your own reaction to an event, possibly by someone’s saying something that moves you, whatever. But in order to make such acts a matter of habit, I think a person needs to have a mindset that is habitually kind. Some people just are that way naturally. I, to be honest, have to struggle a bit more. A mechanism that gets me to be more habitually kind will cause me to do more kind acts. For some, I assume, worship of a god or gods fills that bill.

That’s what I mean by actions being superficial. I do not think that merely sending kind thoughts someone’s way, or praying for them, is a substitute for actions. I’d agree with you that doing that alone, without ever acting, is a waste of time.

How could it be ? How does it make anything better ?

I disagree. All morality involves interaction with the objective world and objective consequences. Labels like “good” and “evil” are arbitrary, but the moral sytems themselves can be objectively defined and judged according to whether or not they have the desired consequences.

But that makes worship not a matter of morality, but extortion.

That doesn’t make much sense to me; prayer doesn’t do anything.

No, good works are what matter, not intentions or an inner conviction of your own benevolence. Plenty of well meaning fanatics and fools have done horrible and stupid things, meaning well the whole time. “By their fruits you shall know them” is used to define false prophets for a reason.

There does seem to be a need in the human psyche to acknowledge a higher power. This was (perhaps) ingrained in us, before science began to explain our place in the Universe.
Or, perhaps we need a higher power or superior being because we mature outside the womb and are conditioned to obey (because of our vunarability to the outside world) our caretakers. As we age, this need to obey is passed on to religious beliefs.

Especially for those that do not follow him otherwise. Now if only there were guarantee that those that worshiped his word also followed his spirit.

r~