No ,Palestinians do have control.
Gaza is not surrounded by Israel. It shares a border with Egypt.Gazans definitely control that area. If Gazans wanted to live decent lives, they could develop good relations with Egypt, and build themselves a stable country with economic ties to their neighbor.
Instead of blaming right-wing Netanyahu for prolonging the conflict, let’s quote a famous left wing Israeli prime minister:
“Peace will come when the Arabs decide that they love their own children more than they love killing Jews.”
–Golda Meir
(I paraphrased that quote a little bit—Meir used slightly more diplomatic language)
Blaming the people of Gaza for the actions of Hamas is like saying that ordinary North Koreans are to blame for their living under a dictatorship. “Well, if they really wanted to, they could just wave magic wands and make the Iranian-funded and armed terrorists occupying their country go away!”
Israel has a working legislature, executive, judiciary, military, economy, and a framework for electing and changing its governmental and state institutions.
Demanding Gazans to independently set up these things in rival of Hamas (a dominating force) as a prerequisite to granting protections and rights is a maximalist position that leaves no path to Gazans getting protection from war.
To be very clear, the Palestinian people have been victimized by, well everyone in the region: other Arab nations who have consistently been using them as pawns instead of helping them, from before the Partition; their own so-called leadership which use them to line their pockets as gang lords; and of course the Israeli government.
To the OP - the following are not stated with any value judgment attached, it is just answering the question.
Israelis were very horrified by what happened. Revenge on Hamas and any who would give them aid and comfort was certainly a motivation. (Better than addressing your own security failures that allowed it to happen.)
Longstanding stance: when the world is convincingly against you, believes your country has no right to exist, and you are surrounded by enemies then being the meanest toughest mofu on the block is your best future deterrent and defense.
Disabling the infrastructure built up by Hamas. Not in a minor quick to rebuild way.
I do not however see any end game or exit strategy thought out.
Bibi is in power to no small degree because even the most peacenik government possible would not be able to bring a solution to the table unless there was also drastically different leadership with sufficient power to partner with on the other sides (plural intended).
Count me in concurrence with Stranger and Dr_Death. As one must repeat the mantra, Hamas is evil and Israel has the right to defend itself. But there are lots of powerless innocent people in Gaza and Israel doesn’t have the right to indiscriminately destroy them.
And for those who think Israel is all righteous, I’d point out that since October 7th, Settlers have stepped up their West Bank shenanigans while the IDF stands by. I know the West Bank isn’t perfect, but how does it make sense to antagonize the calmer of the two areas? And that’s without getting into the fact that settler land grabs have (IMO) made it impossible to even consider a workable territory there.
And let’s not forget that Netanyahu supported Hamas as a way to make the whole thing not his problem. At the very least, the PM of Israel is complicit in October 7th
As I have said before: There is sufficient lack of adulting by either Hamas or Israel for me to pick a side. I’m to the point where I think US policy should be to stay out of the whole thing and tell them to call us when they want to actually get something done.
But on the other hand, trying to maintain that the civilian populace were simply the helpless hostages of their despotic government and that they would cheer that government’s overthrow was an utterly failed prescription in Iraq. It is simply not possible to conduct a war in a country without making war on that country’s inhabitants.
It’s not arguing over some point of protocol to score political points. It’s acknowledging the real world. If Palestinians aren’t in control of Gaza then there’s no point in negotiating with them about Gaza; they’re not in a position to deliver on anything they might agree to.
Despite the Oct 7th slaughter, I don’t like what’s happening in Gaza. There’s too much death and devastation. Gazans do not deserve this, much less be groomed for future cullings (moral judgement). Practically, I don’t even think Gaza is any longer viable to support life for its population (not without massive long term help and aid).
Even as you negotiate with Egypt, Iran, whomever, there had better be some Palestinians at the table, because who will be left administering Gaza and the West Bank after all the shit settles?
Then Gazans should not be demanded to deliver anything. They should be simply given everything they need to ensure their safety and rights. No conditions. Not one.
“Total victory over Hamas” sounds like the whole jingoistic “war on drugs” and “war on terror” thing - e.g. goals that have no definable success criteria. Hamas may just be an organization, but the ideas they support can just be picked-up by Hamas 2: Electric Boogaloo. You cannot extinguish an idea, at least the way Israel is going about it.
And yeah, Hamas has the guns, so of course they are widely supported by the majority of the population (who, presumably, do not have guns) - but that does not mean everyone is in agreement with and actively participating in everything Hamas does. I agree the idea that if you make the Gazans hurt enough that they will pick themselves up by the bootstraps and kick Hamas out is ridiculous. Why? Because Hamas has the guns.
What does Israel hope to accomplish? It appears from my perspective that the political leaders think they are going to eliminate terrorism entirely, by bombing targets with little regard to civilian casualties.
Interesting plan. I don’t think it’s going to work.
Hamas will be administering Gaza. The same way they appear to be doing now.
Same response. Whatever Israel gives to the Gazans will be taken by Hamas.
So the issue is not whether Israel should be giving things to the Palestinians living in Gaza. That’s not possible. The issue is whether Israel should be giving things to Hamas, which is the organization that’s in power in Gaza.
As people have said, you can’t just wave a magic wand. You can’t give things to the Gazan people and pretend they will have those things. Anything given to the Gazans will be taken by Hamas and then turned into weapons to be used against Israel. And Israel understandably does not want to make Hamas stronger.
Which once again brings me back to may main point. If the Palestinians want to have meaningful negotiations with Israel, they have to take the first step by bringing Hamas under control and taking charge in Gaza.
I suspect Israel’s main hope with this offensive is to remove the capacity of Hamas to mount a major offensive like they did last October. I suspect a lot of Israelies and Palestinians have simply come to accept occasional bouts of violence as a permanent way of life.
I’ve never lived in an autocratic state. But I don’t get the sense it’s as easy as deciding you’re not going to take it anymore. Especially if arms aren’t available to the everyday citizens (I have no idea how easy it is for non-Hamas to get arms in Gaza).
I hear this a lot- instead of coming to the US, these immigrants should fix their own countries. Easy to say from an established constitutional democracy where rights are protected and you have relatively easy access to arms. Not so easy when you’re a goat herder in Iraq and Saddam’s in charge.
I don’t know enough about the local politics to say what their chances of success are.
What I am saying is that Israel shouldn’t pretend that Hamas control of Gaza doesn’t exist and negotiate with the Palestinians as if they were in charge of Gaza.
And this is a local problem. It has nothing to do with the United States and our immigration policy. On that issue, I’d be okay with welcoming Palestinian refugees into America and I’d fully understand why they wanted to get out of the terrible situation in Gaza.
According to the poll, only seven percent of Gazans blamed Hamas for their suffering. Seventy-one percent of all Palestinians supported Hamas’s decision to attack Israel on October 7 — up 14 points among Gazans and down 11 points among West Bank Palestinians compared to three months ago. Fifty-nine percent of all Palestinians thought Hamas should rule Gaza, and 70 percent were satisfied with the role Hamas has played during the war
So, unless the polls are wrong- and i would like to see evidence that they are, since I do have some doubts- the Gaza Palestinians support Hamas.