What does it mean to be a Pagan?

Great Debates
61

I’ll agree with LifeOnWry on the statement that magic/prayer is all about creating a desired outcome, regardless of method. Magic is different everywhere and with everyone, but in some ways, it can be related to anthropology. In fact, there are plenty of anthropologists who’ve dealt with magic in the practices of the culture they’ve studied. Personally, I’d say that performing some forms of magic follows a similar pattern to the steps that are part of rites of passage in anthropological theory. I’ll go through an example in detail so it makes a little more sense.
[ul]
[li]Separation: In the case of a magic ritual, this is the process of separating from the mundane world and making contact with the spirit world. This can and often includes a cleansing ritual in preparation for dealing with supernatural beings (and sometimes a trance state).[/li][li]Liminal state: To quote a definition I was able to Google that serves the purpose of my explanation*, liminality is “The state of being on a threshold in space or time.” Okay, so in this sense, this is the place and time (and physical state in the case of trance) in which magic (or trance-style divination) occurs. A spell is cast in this space; sacred space is sometimes formed, but not always. The spell or prayers or contact with spirits/the gods is made within this time and space, and the connection with this power and these spirits/deities is closed in this space as well. [/li][li]Reintegration: After closing contact with the spirit world, one has to “come down” from the experience, and this is done through a process of “grounding.” There are lots of ways to do this, and I’m not going to get into any of this, as I am not trying to make this a formula, but an example. The body and the mind reemerge from the ritual ready to deal with the mundane world, and the contact with the spirit world is closed for the time being. If what is done works out, the indended outcome happens. If not, well, there’s lots of theories and reasons as to why it didn’t happen, and it’s all situationally dependent.[/li][/ul]

Interestingly enough, I had a professor in college who saw some fascinating things related to magic while studying the Sisala in Ghana. One of them, which he published an article on, is an occurrence where the dead was raised. If I still had that article, I’d cite it, but I don’t think it’s going to be something found on the internet.

*A lot of the others were a bit too strict within the bounds of traditional anthropological theory and social structure. A bit too off-topic, and would end up being distracting. Google’s results are here; feel free to look around further if the definition I chose isn’t clear enough.

62

Renee, you should read S.M. Stirling’s Dies the Fire SF trilogy. One of the survivors of the mysterious Change that makes all powered machinery and firearms inoperable is Juniper Mackenzie, a Wiccan folksinger who leads other survivors to her hobby-farm in the Oregon hills and starts a “clan” based on Celtic culture and the Wiccan religion. The resulting culture is fascinating (especially in contrast to those in neighboring ministates that have developed, post-Change, along very different lines).

63

Christians don’t really believe in that whole Jesus thing, do they? :wink:

Renee, in my experience “magick” can have very specific results. Immediate? Depends, but usually not. Events take time.
Giving examples is begging the skeptics to come in, and feels kind of tacky, too - like “Behold mighty Bobo! Stand in awe at his wonders, fear his wrath!”

64

In Reclaiming Witchcraft they call this “between the worlds.” The saying goes: “What happens between the worlds affects all the worlds.”

I find this especially significant in queer magick because of the concept of “edgewalking.” To be queer is to exist as a liminal being, an edgewalker, able to touch more than one realm.

Because of studies suggesting distinctive brain structures in gay, lesbian, and transgender people, I wonder how much of the traditional connection of queerness with shamanism, magick, and the sacred might come from differences in brain activity.

Wondering if the ability to repeatedly accept radical consciousness expansion into new areas of experience (like Shakespeare said, “poets, madmen, and lovers”) is reflected in the brain’s neurology. Childhood learning forms certain neural pathways to facilitate thought along certain lines that tend to remain fixed in adulthood. Those of us who are not bound to rigid ideologies but stay fluid and open in consciousness like children may have a wider variety of neural pathways set up.

It was accessing my queer consciousness that taught me the value of edgewalking, which had so often been trashed by authoritarian religions and held in little value. The lack of fear to transgress the boundaries set by authoritarian religion, the awareness of being queer, and participating in Witchcraft all feel like they come from the same place within me.

Currently reading Cassell’s Encyclopedia of Queer Myth, Symbol and Spirit — now I begin to see how much queer people have contributed to humanity’s spiritual heritage, though this gets buried when authoritarian religions rule. One example of sacred genderfucking in ancient paganism that survived the ages was The Bacchae by Euripides. So welcome back Paganism.

65

The other thing about the symbols - candles, colors, incense, fabrics, drawings etc. - of magick is that they speak to the child brains in all of us. We can “tell” ourselves something over and over, but there’s still a stubborn, nonverbal toddler Id part of us that won’t “get” it. I find it easier to communicate with this part of me in symbols, nonverbally. The intellectual “I” that is writing to you may want to get a job, but the child brain me is so not interested, so I have to convince her with something shiny and fun.

When my husband teaches this stuff (in a regular university, not to practitioners) he gives the following example of “magick” that all his students have experienced: a high school graduation ceremony.

Separation: There’s a period of four years where the culture at large separates you from the rest of us, groups you with your age mates and teaches you the knowledge you will need to become an adult. At the end of this time, you enter a liminal state: not yet a graduate, but no longer learning. This liminal state is marked by the graduation ceremony. You spend a day on the boundary, not a student, not a graduate. Crossing that stage an accepting your diploma “makes” you a graduate, and no longer a child in the eyes of the rest of us. The ceremony, or ritual, involved touches us at a deep symbolic level, so we “get” that something has happened to change you, more than just a piece of paper saying you finished your school. This is why parents tend to be insistent that their kids go to the graduation ceremony, when the kids themselves tend to think it’s a stupid waste of time. They may not need the ritual, because they have their own teenaged rituals and rites of passage, but the parents aren’t tuned into those symbols and patterns. Only when presented with symbols and patterns their subconscious equates with “graduate” does it really hit home and an internal shift occurs. The reintegration occurs when the former child is treated and acts like an adult (or, in some cases, *more *like an adult, with a final transformation after college or moving out or some other ritual - I think part of why we have such muddy boundaries for “adulthood” is because we can’t all agree on one rite of passage for it, but that’s another thread.). The parents now look at their child with new eyes and their relationship with them is changed. New rules apply, all because of a walk across a stage in a silly hat.

Another one is marriage: lots of parents get quite upset when their kids elope, because they miss witnessing the ritual that makes it easier for them to accept their child’s new status as Married Person. I suspect this is why there used to be such scandal in living together before marriage - without the “magick”, no one felt comfortable according them their new status and roles. The couple may have their own symbols of the transition, but they didn’t give everyone else the proper symbolic cues to speak to their child-brains.

(I have a personal fondness for rites of passage, can you tell?)

As for the “do you really believe?” question, I have to say that for me, it varies. Sometimes, usually when I’m fresh off a transcendent experience, I know for a damn solid fact that the ones I refer to as gods and goddesses are as real as you and I and this keyboard. That certainty fades over time, and I start to think of them as allegorical archetypes. Sometimes I agree with Lon Milo DuQuette, an atheist magickian, who says that gods, goddesses, angels, demons and all the rest of the universe is inside your head - “You just have no idea how big your head is!” At the moment, I’m in a bit of a bitter, battered and bruised agnostic state, but I know that when it’s right for me, Someone will show up again and whack me over the head for being a doofus and I’ll get back on the right Path.

66

Interesting that you bring this up, as I didn’t get really into traditional notions of “who” uses magic in “traditional” societies. Generally the shamans are those who are “outsiders/edgewalkers” in their society. This can be for a number of reasons, one of which is a bout of mental illness or perceived intense mental distress. Because of this, they have a different experience from the average person within the society, and have a different connection to reality. Often enough, this means that they have access to the spirit world, and to the spirits that come into the mundane world. In developing this relationship with the spirit world, they have access to knowledge that is useful to others, but also kept away from the average person of society. These “shamans” become the seers, diviners, and healers of that society; people come to them for help, advice, and a glimpse of the future.

In connecting to the idea of queer magic, those who practice it are connected to a consciousness that their fellow members of queer society may have not tapped into, and thus can be a valuable aspect in that subgrouping. Now, not knowing a whole lot about the premise of queer magic, I’m going to presume that there may be an element of gender boundaries within magic (yes, I believe that there are magic areas that can be more suited towards one gender or another based on a traditional sense of magic) that are bent, broken, or skewed depending upon the individual queer magic user. This would presumably also tie into that individual’s gender identity. (Personally, I knew a gay man who was often mistaken for a female [via his mode of dress and slightly androgynous facial features] who I’d say was more of a “women’s magic” practitioner than a follower of “men’s magic.” He could quite possibly be an example of queer magic, as not only was his worship focused on female goddess[es], but his worship and magic style ran along more feminine lines.) Is any of this accurate in your understanding of queer magic?

67

Yes, that’s a good example.

68

These days I’m a soft atheist, but I grew up in the “miscellaneous random shit” category. My dad was non-practicing Seventh Day Adventist (although lately he seems to be reading the Bible a lot, which is a huge change), my mom is ex-Catholic and into a bunch of New Age, Native American, and other stuff, and my stepfather practiced Lakota and old Celtic traditions. (Really old - he was born in the 20s and his great-grandfather moved from Scotland to Canada in the 18th century. This is a line of men who had children late in life.) I’ll post more about it tomorrow, but I have to go to bed.

69

Okay, so in going through my papers and such today, I found that I had saved some of the printouts from online readings that I had for a class I took with this particular professor (it was called “Anthropology of Religion” for those who are interested), and was able to find the specific article. I’ll list the info below for any who are interested.

*1983 Grindal, Bruce T. Into the Heart of Sisala Experience: Witnessing Death Divination. Journal of Anthropological Research *

Sorry for lack of volume and issue numbers; the scanned article does not provide either of those.

70

My stepfather, Jean, called himself a druid and said that the teachings had been passed down from father to son for many generations. On the High Holidays, and on full moons, he performed a ceremony to the moon goddess, called Dana (pronounced Dah-nah). The High Holidays are the solstices, equinoxes, and the four days exactly between them. He always did the ceremonies outside at night, unless it was raining. I will try to describe them, but I don’t remember everything, and the prayers were all done in Gaelic.

First Jean would light a fire in a firepit in the backyard. Partly this was traditional, and partly it was so we could see and also cook some food. He would lay out a tartan cloth on a small table and place a few things on it - a dirk, a cup, a bottle of Drambuie. He said that originally black and white candles were also part of the ceremony, but that black candles were difficult to find so he had to omit them. White candles symbolized light, day, and summer, while black candles symbolized dark, night, and winter. The candles were to be set in a circle around the tartan, the number of white and black varying by the time of year. On summer solstice there would be one black candle to remind you not to forget the coming of winter, while on winter solstice there would be one white candle to remind you that the light was never completely gone.

When everything was set up, Jean would pour the Drambuie, then dip the tip of the dirk into it and let it spin down onto the tartan. This was some sort of augury to reveal your fortunes for the next few weeks, but I don’t know the details of it. I think the lines of the tartan pattern represented compass directions, and if the dirk pointed north it was good, while south was bad.

Next he dipped the dirk in the cup again, and pricked his tongue on the tip. I was never sure what the significance of this was. Then he drank from the cup and passed it around to everyone present, to receive Dana’s blessing. When the cup came back to him, he said a closing prayer and that was the end of the ceremony. He said that there was a longer ceremony that was done in the old days, but that this version had the essential elements.

Jean spoke all the prayers in Gaelic and offered an abbreviated translation in English, and even that I don’t completely remember. They went something like this: “Great Dana, hear my prayer. I am (insert full name here). We thank you for the blessings you have given us, and ask you again on this (name of holiday) for your blessings in the coming weeks.” That was the basic pattern, with variations depending on where in the ceremony the prayer was spoken. There was a prayer at the opening, one before casting the dirk onto the tartan, one when pricking the tongue, one when passing the cup around, and one at the closing.

71

I can’t say anything about the authenticity of Jeans ceremony, nor how many generations it’d been passed down, but modern druidry goes back to 1717. Claiming something was passed down for generations isn’t too hard to believe in this case.

72

I make no claims of authenticity. Like I said earlier, I consider myself atheist. I’ve tried to describe what I remember, no more.

73

[History Nitpick]Medieval Scandinavia was a christian society, and by this time old norse beliefs were largely gone. Of course, medieval times came later to Scandinavia than to the rest of Europe, being preceded by the period usually called the Viking Age (roughly 800-1100). This period overlaps with early medieval times in central and southern europe, so I can understand the confusion. However, when reffering to the shift in religion, using the term “medieval” to mean “pre-christian” is incorrect. [/History Nitpick]

We have a group like that here in Oslo (called Vigrid) - bunch of bigotted asholes mumbling about reclaiming their ancestrall lands from invading heathens (read: non-whites), and performing “rituals” out in the woods, waving axes, shouting about Tor and Odin and what have you. White supremasist people who draw on old norse mythology really bother me, because they are using what is, in a very real sense, my cultural heritage for sinister purpose. I’m not an old norse pagan, but I am a scandinavian: these are the symbols and the mytholgy of my ancestors. Being asked if im a neo-nazi just because I’m a mythology buff is frightening. I guess the only thing I can do is wear my Torshammer with pride, and hope these sad, deluded individuals go away.

The real old norse pagans (I first saw the word Asatru here on the SDMB. I though it must be the name of some african religion. Then it dawned on me: Asa-tru = belief in Aesir. It’s the weirdest word to my norwegian ears, though I can see where it’s coming from) I’ve met were all nice people, subtly proud in their heritage and their culture, and simply wanting to practise their religion in peace.

Other than that, I got nothing. Carry on.

74

I didn’t mean that as criticism, modern druidry has a long and honorable history.

75

No offense taken.

76

The pagan religion of my Roman and Greek ancestors was once carried to lots of countries by the feared and hated imperial power of its day. I can imagine how an imperialist Roman cult would be viewed with distaste almost comparable to neo-Nazi religion today. However, the Roman Empire is long gone, its religion is of no concern to anyone but classicists and Pagan reconstructionists. If I invoke Cybele, that carries no overtones of imperialism, it feels politically innocuous. I’m Sicilian, and my people’s civilization predates Rome by thousands of years anyway. Both Italy and Sicily had Neolithic sites of the Mother Goddess along with similar sites in Malta, which is what I look back to. Cybele was the name given to Her in classical times. Several ancient peoples in Italy and Sicily (including the Romans, Etruscans, and Elymians) traced their origins to Anatolia, so they welcomed the name of Cybele, the Anatolian Mother Goddess.

However, it’s possible to see ancient Nordic religion as a bearer of enlightenment. Thomas Jefferson identified with the ancient Germanic tribes who fought the Roman Empire, and took them as his model for his revolution against the British Empire, who he saw as continuing the oppressive rule of the Romans. In Jefferson’s view, the ancient Germanic tribal councils were the root of democracy and individual liberty that he wanted to build this nation upon. So even though I haven’t shown any interest in Norse mythology myself, to be fair I can see ways it could be taken as beneficial instead of malevolent. Septima, maybe if you you see it like Jefferson–the democratic systems of modern Scandinavia are a beacon of enlightened government to the rest of the world. Many of us in America look to your example. Be proud that your Nordic heritage helps to make you world leaders of real democracy.

I don’t know Norse religion very well. I read somewhere that the Vanir were an older set of deities than the Aesir. That the Aesir were more aggressive and took over from the Vanir. I wonder if the name of Aesir might be connected to Asia, if they came from the East. There are lots of Indo-European mythologies where one tribe of deities conquers another: devas vs. asuras, ahuras vs. divs, Olympians vs. Titans, Marduk vs. Tiamat, etc. Tell me more about the Vanir.

77

Except that Tiamat and Marduk aren’t Indo-European, of course. I was on a roll there.

78

Another “unpecified” pagan checking in here.

WhyNot, we have a lot in common, maybe we need a meetup at Camp some time… You know the Stinkee Beetles, one of them was my high school sweetie! I hang with some seasonals up there so while I usually flee for most of Starwoood, I am there pretty often.

I have a pretty hazy spiritual identity, I believe more in action than in spiritual theory or the nature of deity. In other words, do what works and concentrate on the doing. I see a great need for people to increase their connection to nature and to understand how humans are a part of nature.

I’m one of those folks who see magic/prayer as “internal”, I think we shape ourselves and our own actions through magic.

I am part of a religious organization that is multi-faith and very cross-cultural, flexible, and democratic. In other words we play nicely and work together. We gather together for the standard Pagan holidays and for special events. Our rituals are a combination of our own traditions and the specific spiritual background of whomever is in charge of ritual for that particular event.

I’m cool with Jesus, I was a Christian when I was a kid and I still like the figure of Jesus-the-rebel-hippie who made God accessible to everyone. I just also like Athena and Diana and all those other Deities just as well. I feel that they all have value, something to tell us about ourselves.

I figure that if I hadn’t gone to such a lousy church (racist, homophobic, age-ist, sexist “Normal Baptists”), I’d probably have just joined the Unitarians or Quakers and stayed a Christian. At this point, being Pagan is 1000x more fun so I’m cool with where I am. Maybe I’ll join a CUUPS chapter of the UU sometime in the future.

79

Oh, have no fear Johanna - It may have become muddled in my (late night) post, but I am proud my heritage (and my modern day nation), and I’m a sucker for norse mythology and culture. I’ve been raised on these stories and legends, and I feel they belong to me - which is why I really hate the fact that neo-nazi groups seem to feel the same way, and therefore create the “viking nazi” - a thoroughtly despicable being, who may not be able to feel shame for his racism and imperialistic tendencies, but should be ashamed of blackening the culture of his ancestors. Why can’t these people make up their own symbols?

I never knew Thomas Jefferson saw the germanic tribes that way. Maybe I’ll have to pick up a book on the man - my american history is spotty at best. Thanks you for your kind words.

The Vanir? Oh dear. Well, not many details areknown about them - there was a war between the vanir and the aesir, but most of it is lost in the past - they way I heard it described, it wasn’t a conquest, but more “they were at war, and decided to make peace”.

Part of the peace treaty involved a trade of hostages: the Vanir gave Njord and his twin children, Freya and Frey, while the aesir gave a wise man, Mimir, and another named Hønir.

Now, the aesir had tricked the vanir - Hønir was not one of them, but a shapeshiftet chicken (Høne=chicken). When this was discovered, the head of mimir was sent back to the aesir. Odin later revived it, and kept it as an adviser.

Which meanes that some of the central norse deities were not aesir but vanir. Njord was worshipped as the god of the sea, while Frey and Freya were gods of fertility- the male twin made the crops grow, while the female gave humans and livestock offspring.

Many have speculated on why these transplanted vanir were gods of nature and fertility, an aspect almost absent from the Aesir, save for Tor and his thunder (whick is more of an origin-myth than an aspect he was worshipped for). The three vanir were the gods invoked daily by simple people, farmers and fishermen, housewives and trells, while Odin and Tor and the other Aesir were more spesifik gods, for warriors and kings. It may very well be that Njord and his children are the older gods, and the aesir were “discovered” later. It’s not implausible. If you like, I could go dig through the library and find more stories about the vanir for you.

80

I use Iceland as a geographic reference of belief, and, well, Iceland didn’t “officially” convert to Christianity until around 1100 CE, if I recall correctly. I originally was thinking of 700-800 CE when writing, and somehow chose “medieval” over “iron age” because of common familiarity with the term over accuracy of wording. Sorry.

Oh, also, I completely agree with your reasoning for being bothered by white supremacists. Living as an American, it can be tougher to say both of the following: 1. you’re Scandinavian and 2. you follow the norse gods. A lot of people will look at you funny for #2, and a lot of people will also assume the worst if you do both because they see it as being too interested in being “white.” (There’s a lot of race issues that I don’t fully understand culturally because I wasn’t raised by two Americans who have been around since slavery existed, and there are things that I just don’t get because of this. Cultural differences and such that aren’t very clear.) I find myself really bothered when television shows have white supremacists of the “neo-nazi” fashion on them who claim to practice Asatru. Why does it bother me? Because this is almost always the only thing that many people will see or hear of connected to Asatru and it doesn’t apply to the majority of the people who practice it.