What does it mean to be a Pagan?

[LifeOnWry]

@ultrafilter

In past discussions, I’ve seen it mentioned that paganism is an orthopraxic religion rather than orthodoxic (i.e., the binding elements that everyone adheres to are a set of rituals rather than creeds). But I don’t know if that’s universally true, or only for Wicca. How well does it describe the other faiths?

Yanno, I’m not so much ritual-oriented. There are some things I do that could be described as religious rites, in that I do them for religious reasons and I do them often enough that they’ve become ritual, but I doubt that anyone but me would find them particularly meaningful. Some of what I do is derived from “book of shadows” type publications, but that’s because I find those things to be personally meaningful and they work within my self-imposed structures. I observe the general Wiccan wheel-of-the-year holidays because they make sense to me, I cook particular meals on different holidays because the symbolism works for me, and so on.

I think that there’s more similiarity in various Pagan subsets in terms of belief than in terms of practice. As you said, Wicca may be a particular exception - or it may be that as a solitary eclectic, I haven’t had much exposure to the rituals of other subsets.

[Polerius]

@Antinor01

I also feel a connection to the Greek pantheon and call on those gods during rituals and meditations

Do you believe the gods of the Greek pantheon actually exist, or do you call on them simply as part of a ritual?

[interface2x]

@OneCentStamp

No, that would be People Against Goodness And Normalcy. And that’s…just the facts, ma’am.

Beat ya! Of course, you provided a link, so I’ll consider it a draw.

[Lilairen]

@Polycarp

A question, and I hope everyone knows my attitudes well enough not to mistake it for marginializing someone: How common are belief systems like Lilairen’s (not specifically Kemiticism, but the general “I identify as a form of pagan, but not the ‘doing workings and honoring the Goddess’ kind” of belief, within the ‘big tent’ of Paganism? I’d formed the perhaps-mistaken impression that the sort of generalizations I’d made in post #6 were true for most modern Pagans. That does not, of course, mean that I hold Lil’s beliefs in any less respect, just that I’d formed the impression of a sort of majority consensus that her system doesn’t fit, and I’m wondering if I’m mistaken on that.

One of the issues is that most of the published material is on religious witchcraft, and the overwhelming majority of that is Wiccan-derived. (Starhawk’s work, The Spiral Dance, was I think for a long time the only religious witchcraft work that wasn’t derived from Wicca; her Reclaiming tradition has roots in the Anderson Feri tradition.) This is changing somewhat over time – there are some Feris publishing about the tradition now (the tradition grandmaster Anaar has a book about Feri aesthetics; Thorn Coyle, the woman I study with, has a Feri basic practice book out that is quite controversial within the tradition).

Also: reconstructionist religions just don’t have the basic material written. The best book I know of for Greek reconstructionism, Old Stones, New Temples, is out of print, for example. There are maybe two or three books written by Celtic reconstructionist practitioners. A new convert to a reconstructionist religion will likely be given pointers to a couple of translations of sagas, or a few academic works on what we think we know about how the ancients practiced. This is a lot rougher than the forty billion “How to cast your circle and celebrate the Sabbats with the Lord and Lady” books out there, and until we start writing our “How to blot and submel” or “Fire festivals for beginners” or whatever else, there’s going to be this huge lag in what’s visible.

This means that the dominant stuff is going to be at least heavily influenced by what you described, because that’s what’s readily accessible. This has led to some political positions among certain reconstructionsts that they do not want to be referred to as pagan religions, because people will assume wildly incorrect things about their religions.

I think the internet is changing that somewhat, as like-minded people are more likely to be able to network resources. My own piddly little website where I talk about mostly Kemetic theology gets referenced by people I’ve never met, which tickles me. I also think that more recons are recognising the need to write basic introductory books about their religions. But I know that I’m someone who wouldn’t have found a religion that actually works for me without the internet – I was nebulously pagan for about ten years because the broad fuzzy category matched me better than anything else I found, going so far as trying to believe in gender dualism and a few of the other things you mentioned. I didn’t find anything that worked better until a fortuitous websearch revealed the existence of a pagan religious system that I could actually dedicate myself to.

I am told by older pagans that the pagan community was more diverse in appearance back in the 70s than it is today, but that the popularity of Wicca and other forms of religious witchcraft shot up rather sharply and swamped the visible face of the community.

I honestly have no idea what the proportions are. I spend a lot of time in corners of the community that are dominated by reconstructionists, and when I venture out of those I mostly hang out with the traditional Wiccans and Feris, but I get the impression that both of these subgroups are outnumbered by the rest of folks.

[Lilairen]

@WhyNot

Really impossible to answer. I don’t know about Liliaran’s folks, but neopagans in general don’t have much in the way of rosters. Because so many of us hold either multiple initiations or none at all, and because many groups don’t keep rolls, and many people don’t work with a group, we really don’t know how many of any kind, or even just how many “Religion - other” there are in the US. “Pagan” isn’t on the census, and lots of people wouldn’t mark it if it was. Some out of fear of reprisal, some because the terms “pagan” and “neopagan” are hotly debated ones - lots of people don’t want to be called that even if they are Goddess worshipin’ nature magickians*.

I can say that there are several actual religious organisations within Kemetic groups, with lists of people in their congregations and stuff, and that I dislike all of them for various reasons. (Among other things, they’re all feuding with each other nastily and trying to show each other up.)

I suspect most Kemetics have at one point belonged to one or more of those groups – but the indie community is growing, and I have no idea how large it is.

I can say that **Lilairen **is the very first member of a reconstructionist religion that I’ve “talked” to whom I *believe *when she says what she’s doing is based on sound archaeological research and actual prayers found written from actual Egyptian sources. Why do I believe her? I’m not sure, honestly, but I do. 99.9% of “reconstructionists” are full of it, either willfully lying or believing their elders’ claims of knowledge passed down where no evidence is present of either written communication or even an oral line.

There is the point that there is about a metric assload of written material from ancient Egypt. We don’t have all of the stuff we have in museums translated, even. This makes some parts of the process of reconstruction easier – we can go down to a ruined temple and look at the walls where the ritual progression is drawn in big coloured figures with textual instructions written around it. It’s not by any means complete – we know things like “pour four cool water libations here” but not Who to pour them to. So there’s the question of how to patch the gaps – make things up, pull from possibly-related cultures, what?

My boyfriend would be a Celtic recon if he thought that it were possible to honestly be one. He’s occasionally vastly frustrated by the fact that the majority of his information was written down by medieval monks, and thus second-hand at best. He’s basically of a “I guess I’ll make this up as I go along and see what checks against the information I can get” school.

But of course no matter what at some point we get to a “Gotta make something up here” point. And if someone claims divine inspiration for their patch, people will argue about that; if someone pulls from a related culture, people will argue about that; if someone goes through the sagas and pulls out lines that support what they’re doing, people will argue about that. Reconstruction is hard. (Just for a little perspective on “religion is hard”: I’m trying to figure out how to make a modern, functional religion from something which had a god-king essential to its theology. PITA.)

[Johanna]

Mythology of the Goddess has a similar effect on me as poetry that I really love. Poetry uses metaphor to draw imaginal connections between different realms. Enough connections like this can literally knit together the fabric of one’s experience of the world. For a coherent sense of one’s place in existence, which I think is central to anyone’s well-being. Contemporary Paganism offers the best sort of poetic experience, the sort that works for me the best.

For example, a book titled The Great Cosmic Mother by Monica Sjöö draws an analogy of the planet Earth and its oceans which were the original habitat of life, and the amniotic fluid of pregnancy which duplicates a warm marine environment to bring forth new life. In a real sense human motherhood replicates the origin of life on Earth. I don’t know what value this insight might have in the realm of hard science. Treated as a poetic metaphor, it offers me a rich sense of interconnection between macrocosm and microcosm–which was also the intent of many religions in ancient times, like Hermeticism or Pythagoreanism.

My faith doesn’t rely on a personification of deity, but sometimes I like to personify the Goddess, again as a poetic metaphor that speaks to me on a deep level. The names of Allat, Cybele, Inanna, Isis, Durga, Kali, Demeter, Hecate and others are connected with these feelings of interconnectedness with the origin of life, and the plainest way to summarize these feelings is to say “Mother Goddess.” These feelings comfort me and make me stronger to deal with the challenges of life, and to feel happy to be alive.

Other times I feel like I’m on my own in the cosmos and it’s entirely up to me what I make of my life. When I feel strong and smart and confident enough to run my life on my own without anyone looking over my shoulder, then I don’t feel the need for a personal deity. The happy, peaceful feeling I get from praying to the Goddess is also found in the vibrant feminine life energy that I feel within me. I really don’t differentiate between my experience of the Goddess as a deity and the feeling of feminine vitality within me.

This is where Tantrism comes in very useful. In Tantrism shakti means both the life energy within you, and the name of the Goddess. In Sanskrit, shakti means ‘power’. Either way I can access this state is fine. Tantric yoga was what brought me to Pagan consciousness and now it’s like a program that’s always running in the background for me.

The arguments of atheists I always read here–the calm, rational atheist arguments, that is–make perfectly good sense to me and it’s easy for me to see from their point of view. I tend to strongly agree with atheists about protesting the abuses that religion inflicts on human beings. I’m very sensitive to the abusiveness institutionalized throughout the world, and I think religions should be held to account for this to a large extent.

Nevertheless, my brain functions in such a way that I live every day in an ongoing religious experience. I take this as a gift, a talent. Other people have other talents, I wound up with this one, so let me enjoy it. It seems that the neurons at certain areas of my brain fire in a way that makes it easy for me to interpret reality in religious terms, and also to enjoy spiritual experiences. Clearly, this is what keeps me from being atheist. I have no problem accepting that other people’s brains don’t work like mine, and it’s fine with me if they’re atheist. I’ve learned a lot from the intelligent atheists here.

Mindful of the cogent atheist arguments, I try to build a religion for myself that won’t perpetrate the abuses I see in other religions. Contemporary Paganism affords the best scope for this. In my community of feminist Witches I’ve seen how a nonhierarchical community can organize itself by consensus, in a completely transparent process that includes everyone. I think it would be beneficial to humanity if this caught on, as an antidote to authoritarianism and its abuses. That’s a big part of why I like being Pagan.

Does that answer your question, Renee? Thanks for asking, it was sweet of you.

[Johanna]

One of the most important things of all for me is: Paganism is the best religion for queer people. (Along with UU, but UU seems to have gone wholesale Pagan by now itself.)

[Tristan]

As a semi-non-practicing Pagan of non-demoninational flavor, I’m loving this thread.

nashiitashii- My experiences online with the Asatru (sp?) has almost universally been as a prelude to being felt out about my feelings of White Supremacy/White Nationalism. Have you run into that yourself?

[WhyNot]

@Lilairen

This is changing somewhat over time – there are some Feris publishing about the tradition now (the tradition grandmaster Anaar has a book about Feri aesthetics; Thorn Coyle, the woman I study with, has a Feri basic practice book out that is quite controversial within the tradition).

I love Thorn Coyle’s book! My stepmother gave it to me and I’m really enjoying it. I wish it were more widely known in this area, as there’s some work in it I’d love to do with others.

My stepmom’s one of Thorn’s students, as well as a teacher at Witchcamp. I wonder if you know her. That’d be weird. Email me if you’re curious and I’ll tell you her name. Even weirder, I wonder if I’ve met you and don’t know it! :eek:

[Johanna]

Hey, Lilairen and WhyNot, I studied Feri with Thorn too. Isn’t she excellent? I love Thorn. She invited me to belly dance in a show with her, which is how I found out she was an accomplished belly dancer from the Fat Chance troupe in SF. It was so cool of her to invite a beginner like me to perform with her. When I said I think of Paganism as queer-friendly, a lot of that is thanks to Thorn as a strong voice for queer magick.

Now I’m wondering if I met your stepmom at Witchcamp too…

[Lilairen]

Wow. Small world.

(Email sent, WhyNot.)

Thorn’s great. Did you guys know she’s got her devotional dance DVD printed up now? She brought a handful of copies to our training retreat this past weekend.

[Johanna]

I saw it on her blog. She led a devotional dance circle every morning at camp before path started, the Iron and Pearl Pentacles really came to life. I would love to start doing that again.

[lokij]

@Tristan

As a semi-non-practicing Pagan of non-demoninational flavor, I’m loving this thread.

nashiitashii- My experiences online with the Asatru (sp?) has almost universally been as a prelude to being felt out about my feelings of White Supremacy/White Nationalism. Have you run into that yourself?

I can’t speak for nashiitashii, but I’ve been practicing Asatru for 13 years now and I can tell you it’s quite common. Now, that being said it doesn’t mean that the person you think is ‘feeling you out’ is a racist… often in my experience he/she is feeling you out to see if YOU are a racist. Its a well known minority within the faith that causes this kind of behavior because you really don’t know sometimes untill you’ve had this person around you for awhile then it starts bubbling up. Some people try to nip this in the bud by carefully probing early on and get a feel for where you’re coming from before they let you in and it becomes an internal problem for a group. The never ending in-fighting, paranoia, defensiveness and self policing is why I’m no longer involved in group worship, it’s just not worth it for me. Asatruar is also good training for this message board, you get really used to being asked “CITE?”.

[nashiitashii]

@Tristan

As a semi-non-practicing Pagan of non-demoninational flavor, I’m loving this thread.

nashiitashii- My experiences online with the Asatru (sp?) has almost universally been as a prelude to being felt out about my feelings of White Supremacy/White Nationalism. Have you run into that yourself?

Honestly, because of the small cluster of racist/white supremacist Asatruar out there, I tend to scan proclaimed Asatruar’s postings for anything that could hint of an inclination towards neo-nazism or white supremacy as a filter for who I feel comfortable associating myself with. I have run across a few sites that were white supremacist Asatruar (I have feelings that people who think this way aren’t real Asatruar, much in the way that other people who seek to persecute and divide are not real Christians. That’s another matter, though.) in searching for more information (I have a working relationship with Skadi, who happens to be the namesake for a big white supremacist message board. Yeah, that was creepy.) on different aspects of the Asatru online community. I’m not universalist, if only for the fact that I think mixing trads willy-nilly is not advisable and agree with the same on directly mixing pantheons while in ritual. Other than that, I’m fairly open minded to acknowledging, befriending, or worshipping other gods than I worship.

In short, a lot of Asatruar online will use what you say as an indicator of many things, one of which happens to be whether or not you’re a white supremacist. To many, being a white supremacist is instant grounds for being exiled from the community, while in a very select few, being a white supremacist is a requirement. I’m still learning, but have a reasonably good feel for the basics of Norse culture and ethics. I still will occasionally get a “Hey newbie, watch your butt and read some more before you can contribute properly to this conversation” comment from people who’ve either gotten their PhDs in a related area or have been around long enough to think that anyone they don’t personally know is a party pagan who’s trying out “viking style.”
Antinor01: Most definitely not. 1) I’m engaged. 2) I’m not Wiccan and thus don’t follow Wiccan ritual format. 3) Although I was a bit of a maneater in my younger days, I was never one to respond well to a tacky pick-up line. Predatory behavior (like that of the maneater) generally doesn’t include the predator receiving a pick-up line. 4) I genuinely realize this was in jest, but I responded anyway.

lokij: I definitely agree with you on that point. Any time I am talking with someone whom I can tell is not an Asatruar and is likely not familiar with Asatru, I try to make it as clear as possible as soon as possible that an interest in the gods of my ancestors (easiest way to explain some of the reasons I converted) does not make me or anyone else a racist, and that racism really isn’t a common element within Asatru. Enough people out there go :eek: upon merely hearing that someone is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, so I try to dampen the shock by simplifying info as much as possible with them… or avoid the topic of what gods I honor altogether in favor of the values I hold.

As for all the in-fighting, that happens in just about every Pagan community I’ve seen. I was effectively suggested to leave the student group that I was part of because of some personal misunderstandings that one of the leaders had with me, and after a while, the group imploded due to leadership issues in general. I’ve also seen a lot of backbiting within the local Pagan community in that area. It happens, just as it happens in more mainstream groups of worship. (Seen it there too.) However, as there are more developing groups than established, long term groups out there within Asatru [and Paganism in general], these are going to continue to be issues. I’m not part of a group partially because it’s difficult to find one that’s already established that doesn’t have major drama issues, is not wary of any newcomer to the point of excluding them altogether, and is in enough agreement with what I’d go along with in ritual. (The first two I’ve yet to find, and I’m making an assumption on the third.) I’m happy with practicing at home with my fiance, who practices Shinto. (It’s another “seat of your pants” type practice if you don’t happen to be ethnically Japanese and part of a family that already has its own Shinto traditions.) Interestingly enough, the ideas behind the two belief systems mesh reasonably well but we do not personally mix the two.

[Antinor01]

@Polerius

Do you believe the gods of the Greek pantheon actually exist, or do you call on them simply as part of a ritual?

The various names are more a way of personifing the god and goddess, much the way Johanna described. I use the various names as a way of focusing my thoughts and energies for specific goals. If what I’m dealing with is a matter of love, I would likely call on the name of Aphrodite. If I have a situation that clearly needs wisdom to work through, it would be Athena. It is more a matter of calling on a different aspect of divinity that deals with the need at hand.

[nashiitashii]

Polerius, as for the “Do you believe the gods of the Greek pantheon actually exist, or do you call on them simply as part of a ritual?” question, it’s subjective to the individual. Other posters, like Antinor01, are more Jungian and view the gods’ diversity more as a concept, while others, like me, tend to view them as separate and distinct entities. Some people even view them as a construct that doesn’t necessarily exist, but is a channel towards the change that they seek by invoking them in ritual.

There’s really a lot of diversity of thought on this and other issues within Paganism’s umbrella.

[Antinor01]

@nashiitashii

Polerius, as for the “Do you believe the gods of the Greek pantheon actually exist, or do you call on them simply as part of a ritual?” question, it’s subjective to the individual. Other posters, like Antinor01, are more Jungian and view the gods’ diversity more as a concept, while others, like me, tend to view them as separate and distinct entities. Some people even view them as a construct that doesn’t necessarily exist, but is a channel towards the change that they seek by invoking them in ritual.

There’s really a lot of diversity of thought on this and other issues within Paganism’s umbrella.

To be honest, I have not completely settled the question for myself. I’ve largely come to the conclusion that it doesn’t really matter either way, but as I grow and learn I will probably come to a firm conclusion. Then again, maybe I won’t, but overall I don’t feel it is totally necessary to my spiritual journey. So in general I find it simpler to just describe it as I did above.

Rereading that I see where it could be taken as flippant, but I don’t mean it that way.

[Renee]

Thank you all for your thoughtful and thorough responses. Thank you also to the skeptics for keeping out of it ;). I know that some of you have mentioned that you aren’t much into the magic/magick but I am curious about what sorts of things you think/have seen magick do. Is the idea more that you can influence the world through the energy of your thoughts (as I believe and try to keep in mind as I go through my days) or is it more that one would cast a spell and get a specific and or immediate response?

[Lilairen]

@Antinor01

To be honest, I have not completely settled the question for myself. I’ve largely come to the conclusion that it doesn’t really matter either way, but as I grow and learn I will probably come to a firm conclusion. Then again, maybe I won’t, but overall I don’t feel it is totally necessary to my spiritual journey. So in general I find it simpler to just describe it as I did above.

I’m a fairly firm polytheist on the one hand and also, on the other, an extremely hard agnostic – I not only have no idea whether or not my experiences of the gods are factually as I categorised them, some other real external experience that I’ve miscategorised, the products of my subconscious, hallucination, or what, but cannot come up with a reason that it would actually matter to have an opinion on it. The answer is unknowable, so I don’t worry about significances people assign to their internal processes anywhere near as much as I worry about what they do. What people do is actually observable, where the meanings assigned to it is not.

Every so often I do the “If I’m completely mistaken in my assigned meanings, what does that mean?” reality check; for the most part it means I’ve spent time and energy on pursuing things I find beautiful and useful, which as worst case scenarios go is doing pretty well.

[LifeOnWry]

@nashiitashii

Polerius, as for the “Do you believe the gods of the Greek pantheon actually exist, or do you call on them simply as part of a ritual?” question, it’s subjective to the individual. Other posters, like Antinor01, are more Jungian and view the gods’ diversity more as a concept, while others, like me, tend to view them as separate and distinct entities. Some people even view them as a construct that doesn’t necessarily exist, but is a channel towards the change that they seek by invoking them in ritual.

There’s really a lot of diversity of thought on this and other issues within Paganism’s umbrella.

I’m more inclined to the Jungian approach, myself. I have always enjoyed reading mythology, and when I was pretty young - maybe third or fourth grade? - I noticed that different cultures had similar myths. I remember thinking even then that maybe the situations and characters in those myths weren’t so much fiction as fable. I didn’t learn what archetypes were until I was in high school, but as soon as I did learn that, I made the immediate AHA! connection to mythology. From there it was a pretty short leap to my concept of what a diiety is/does.

[QUOTE=Renee]
Thank you all for your thoughtful and thorough responses. Thank you also to the skeptics for keeping out of it . I know that some of you have mentioned that you aren’t much into the magic/magick but I am curious about what sorts of things you think/have seen magick do. Is the idea more that you can influence the world through the energy of your thoughts (as I believe and try to keep in mind as I go through my days) or is it more that one would cast a spell and get a specific and or immediate response?

[QUOTE]

I think of magick (or prayer) as a way of focusing and directing energy. The phrase “casting spells” is a little too “Bewitched” for my tastes, but I also think that sometimes ritual behavior - saying certain words or performing certain acts in a particular order - helps to focus your energy. I draw a parallel to the Catholic church’s masses: you’ve got incense or vestments or music or some other object or pattern that goes with each liturgical event, and doing those things keeps you focused in on what’s going on. Some people will cast a circle or smudge a room or wear a certain robe or light candles in a particular order. I’m not convinced that combining herbs or reciting charms or turning three times widdershins is some sort of catalyst for making a miracle happen, but if it helps the person doing it to focus in on the desired outcome, I’m equally unconvinced that it’s harmful.

In any event, once you’re focused in on a change or a desire, you’re likely to work harder to achieve that, no? So if using magick or prayer or ritual is the first step for you to start on that path, it worked!