What does 'middle class' mean to you?

[Lemur866]

Remember, “class” doesn’t mean how much money you make. A guy working a unionized job as a bus driver or machinist for $50,000 a year is working class, a guy working as a teacher or accountant for $30,000 a year is middle class. A job that requires a college degree is almost by definition a middle class job.

Also class isn’t just what YOU do for a living, it’s also about what your parents did. A guy from the projects who gets a million dollar NBA contract isn’t upper class no matter how much he makes.

And also note that these terms are somewhat obsolete in today’s world. It used to be if you were a farmer or artisan or industrial worker you were lower class, if you were a small business owner or professional you were middle class, if you were an aristocrat or plantation owner you were upper class. But money has never defined class, especially in Europe. One of the definitions of being upper class was that you weren’t supposed to care about money and look down on money-grubbers and capitalists.

[Blalron]

@Askia

$200, 000 earned income per year for one person might make one “rich” after about ten years or so – assuming no other debts and assuming shrewd investments.

Otherwise $200K spent foolishly is just “high income.”

If you make anywhere past 100k per year, you’re rich in my book and thus in the upper class. Unless you have an extremly large family and are crappy at budgeting, you should never seriously be in a situation where you NEED something and you can’t afford it. To me, that’s upper class.

50k to 100k, upper middle class. 20k to 50k lower middle class. Below that we’re creeping up to the poverty line which is decidely lower class. Personally, I’m hovering ever so slightly above the poverty level when it comes to my personal income. My parents should be upper middle class if they were better at handling their money but that’s a story for another thread.

[YaWanna]

I try to separate “class” from income, when it seems appropriate. Just because someone has obscene amounts of money does not make them truly "upper class, " for example, especially in the USA. So, I don’t usually use the term “class” in that way. I have been known to distinguish between white-collar and blue-collar when making broad generalizations. I guess, to me, white-collar corresponds to some people’s mid-to-upper-middle class, and blue-collar corresponds to some people’s mid-to-lower-middle class. But none of it’s set in stone.

I am a white-collar person whose parents are mixed (Dad’s white-collar, Mom’s actually more blue-collar), and their parents were all blue-collar. Mr. Wanna’s family is “more white-collar” than mine, but his first wife & her family were very blue-collar, and his kids tend toward the blue-collar, like their mom. These terms roughly (but with some debatability) describe not only jobs, and income, but also tastes and behavior and even language.

[FlyingRamenMonster]

I’m surprised that people are putting the lower limit so high. We don’t earn anywhere near $100k a year (especially not in American dollars) and I think of ourselves as middle-class because we have a house that is almost paid off, a car in good condition, two televisions, nice furniture. a kid (me, who just graduated from a public high school) and a guinea pig. I think most people live this way. We’re so rich we can go out and buy a car tomorrow without getting ourselves into debt but we’re not so poor that we’d have trouble saving up for a car for when our current one dies. We’ll never be able to afford a mansion, but we have enough money to live the way we want. To me that is middle-class.

[What_Exit]

@Blalron

If you make anywhere past 100k per year, you’re rich in my book and thus in the upper class. Unless you have an extremly large family and are crappy at budgeting, you should never seriously be in a situation where you NEED something and you can’t afford it. To me, that’s upper class.

50k to 100k, upper middle class. 20k to 50k lower middle class. Below that we’re creeping up to the poverty line which is decidely lower class. Personally, I’m hovering ever so slightly above the poverty level when it comes to my personal income. My parents should be upper middle class if they were better at handling their money but that’s a story for another thread.

Well by your definition I would be Upper Class and I assure you the upper class would be insulted by this.
Everything is more expensive in NJ, NY, Conn, & California. You need to have a sliding scale is you are going to use a strict Money divide. To you have class for those above Upper in your scale, because the independantly wealthy have little to do with myself. 50K in NJ is definately not Upper Middle Class.
At the same time you are right, we have the money for everything we “need”, but part of being Upper Class should be having the money to hire a Maid or a Nanny.
Things you don’t need but might like to have. We could only afford such an expense at the expense of our retirement and college funds. Not a good trade off. So I submit I am only Upper Middle.

Jim

[msmith537]

The middle classes are basically the wide swath of people between noticeably poor and noticably wealthy. Obviously it is very difficult to define where the boundaries are because it is a combination of wealth, attitude, background and so on. But I know it when I see it.

Probably the best way to describe the differences is by the different “track” people take in life. Class destinctions will tend to keep people on those tracks.

For most people in the middle classes, their track is to go to school, if they are lucky, go to an average college and then get some job they tolerate for the rest of their lives. They drive average cars. Have little to no sophistication or worldliness. Typcial jobs would be teacher, office worker, dental assistant, paralegal, and so on.

I would characterize myself as “upper middle class”. A minor distinction, but generally characterized by going to better schools and working in better jobs. Types of CAREERS would generally be accountant (CPA), doctor, lawyer, finance. Basically highly paid white collar working class.

The separation is probably more noticeable in a public high school. The UMC kids would be the clean cut kids who are involved in lots of activities and go to private university, eventually working in the Big City. The middle class kids go off to state college and don’t really wander far from their home town.

The wealthy kids, you don’t even see because they are off in private school. Or if you are a UMC kid in private school, they are the kids who’s dad owns this and that and the other thing.

And of course there are all different levels of “wealthy”. If you make $200,000 a year or are worth several million in assets, you’re a pretty wealthy guy. But not compared to a multi-billionare.

For New York area, a quick guide is to go by where people “summer”:
Upper Classes - Hamptons - Own their own house
Upper Middle Class - Manasquan, NJ; LBI; Fire Island, NY - Summer share with college or work friends
Middle Class - Belmar, NJ; Avalon, NJ - Week rental with high school friends
Lower Classes - Jones Beach, Wildwood - Day trip with the cooler

[ultrafilter]

Most of you guys are a little off. Social class correlates very strongly with income, but you shouldn’t mistake that correlation for a cause-effect relationship. I’ve spent time in groups consisting of teachers, letter carries, janitors and the like, and in groups consisting of investment bankers, high-ranking corporate lawyers. The way people act and interact is extremely different between the two, and I think that’s a much more reasonable estimate of class than wealth.

[SuaSponte]

@msmith537

For New York area, a quick guide is to go by where people “summer”:
Upper Classes - Hamptons - Own their own house
Upper Middle Class - Manasquan, NJ; LBI; Fire Island, NY - Summer share with college or work friends
Middle Class - Belmar, NJ; Avalon, NJ - Week rental with high school friends
Lower Classes - Jones Beach, Wildwood - Day trip with the cooler

Weeel, I grew up in the Philly area, and so I’m not as in tune as you New York sophisticates, but I do believe you are wrong about Avalon, NJ. Avalon was always the upper middle class resort for Philadelphians. The middle classes went to places like Ocean City and Wildwood Crest, NJ, not Avalon. For ourselves growing up, as our financial situation improved, we stopped summering in Ocean City and started frequenting Avalon.
My parents own a place in Avalon now, and the housing prices certainly do not comport with a middle class resort town. Nor do the hideous McMansions destroying the town’s character, a sure indication of upper middle class blight.

Sua

[BoringDad]

@Shagnasty

My wife and I push the $200K mark with one child. We bought the mother of all fixer-upper houses, I drive a used car and hers was a work bonus. We live 30 and 50 miles from work, and we buy discount everything. Granted, we live in an expensive area but 100K isn’t a lot of money and 200K is just getting into the comfortable range IMHO.

Heh. See? Upper Middle class family (heavily in to Upper middle) feels better claiming that they are normal middle class. Since you are making 4 times the median household income in the US, and your household is smaller than the median household, I just can’t see how you are part of the Middle Middle Class. Your cost of housing may be high, but for the most part, living in a high cost of living area with comensurate high salaries is FAR more advantageous to you in the long run than living in a low cost of living area with low salaries.

And I disagree with some of the other posters in this thread about the nature of class in the US. In the US, (unless you are talking about Old Money Families looking down on New Money Families), class is almost soley about money.

[Metacom]

Anyone interested in class in the US has got to read this book. It’s short, amusing, and insightful.

With that book in mind, to me “middle class” means “pretentious,” “wall-to-wall carpeting,” “concrete driveway,” “manicured green lawn,” and “insecure about financial status.”

[Askia]

@Blalron

If you make anywhere past 100k per year, you’re rich in my book and thus in the upper class. Unless you have an extremly large family and are crappy at budgeting, you should never seriously be in a situation where you NEED something and you can’t afford it. To me, that’s upper class.

Depends on your deductions and expenses, though, and particularly how long you’ve been earning that kind of money. Malpractice insurance payments are so high many new doctors have difficulty affording a liefstyle $200,000 would normally bring – not to mention paying back their student loans or investing in their practices. Chris Rock wrote in his autobiography, Rock This that during his first year on SNL he was making something like 120k a year, but that paying his lawyer, publicist, agent and income taxes knocked his actual net income down to something like $55,000 and his brother (an educator) was making more than him.

Social interactions are terrific indicators of one’s socioeconomic class, except in those not-so-rare rare cases when prolonged turn of fortune propels you into another class (upward or downward) and you don’t learn how to operate within that new class framework. People who don’t know how to survive poverty, or how to manage their money in affluence, are both pretty sad.

[Dubious_Weasle]

@Dangerosa

$100k a year will not get you a Lexus, home in a expensive community and a vacation to Paris. $200k a year doesn’t get you that in most parts of the country, unless your expensive vacation to Paris includes budget hotels and a fire sale airfare.

Well certainly not all in one year though I’ll address that more later. However, I diagree on many points with several of the posters I do see that I should have made my comments a lot clearer. First, as far as the definition I’m using class=equals money. Middle has more money then lower, Upper has more money then Middle and Rich has the most.

I realize that “Social Class” has a number of connotations, to include, education, family background, social circle etc. In this case though I am using the term strictly to demarkate economic status.

Now, to go back and clarify the examples I stated.
First of all, as I mentioned it is necessary to adjust for geographic and household size. I am assuming a household of 1.

Second, I mentioned upper range of the Upper Middle Class as “100k but certainly not by much.” This was poorly stated. I would consider an indivual making 1-2 hundred thousand as in the Upper Middle Class range, again adjusted for blah blah blah. Exceeding that figure by “much” would be hitting three-hundred thousand plus and yep, that’s still upper class.

Third, as I mentioned above all of these purchases are obviously not bought at once. The car for example was mentioned as a ‘mid-life’ crisis purchase. Thus my point is an Upper Class individual upon reaching mid to late forties with an average annual income over time in the 1-2 hundred thousand range should be able to purchase a luxury car. It bears restating that this must be adjusted for geography aka living costs.

As far as the vacations, if you a household of 1 making 1-2 hundred thousand dollars and you can’t afford a nice yearly vacation you are doing something wrong.

Finally, in regards to the house I may have overreached. You may not own the home outright [depending on where you are in life] by you can certainly make the morgage payments on the place without undue strain.

There, with that said I doubt anyone who disagreed previously will have changed their minds but at least I feel I’ve been a little clearer.

[Wallenstein]

Middle Class = getting out of the bath to have a piss.

[Richard_Pearse]

If you know how much money you earn you are neither rich nor upper class.

[DianaG]

Oh, I’m not sure I’d say that. I work with some people who regularly get seven figure bonuses, and I assure you, they can tell you their net worth to the penny.

Going strictly by income/net worth, I’d consider myself lower middle class. I make slightly more than the median household income for my state, but I’m a single mother, I live in an expensive area, and I don’t own a home.

Going by more ephermeral criteria, who knows? I’ve read the right books. I know which fork to use. Part of my job is chatting with CEOs of Fortune 500 companies and Heads of State. But I’ve also purchased wrestling tickets as a gift, and taken my daughter to Warped Tour, where we participated in some quality crowd-surfing.

[Dangerosa]

@Blalron

If you make anywhere past 100k per year, you’re rich in my book and thus in the upper class. Unless you have an extremly large family and are crappy at budgeting, you should never seriously be in a situation where you NEED something and you can’t afford it. To me, that’s upper class.

I’d call anyone who is in a situation where they truly NEED something (other than major medical which is expensive for almost everyone) and can’t afford it poor. You are poor when you can’t afford necessities.

Once you can take care of food, shelter, clothing and transportation, even if its rice and beans and a bus pass, congrats, you are middle class. Perhaps lower middle class, but middle class. Middle class does cut a wide swath. At upper middle class you have people who can afford nice houses in gated communities, private school for their kids, and two Lexi in the garage. However, they have to work and can’t afford to indulge every whim.

Once you can not only afford the necessities but can afford nearly every whim, you are wealthy.

As to $100k a year…we live in the Twin Cities - not really an expensive part of the country. We paid over $20k a year to have two kids in daycare - and not some swanky daycare where they learn to speak French, a Kindercare. Add to that another $20,000 in house payments and after you take taxes out of $100k, it isn’t much. Particularly if, as people have noted, you’ve already taken money out into a 401k, you have a savings account, etc. $1500 a month in house payments would put you in a home like this:

http://www.homeavenue.com/fsbo/search/propertydetail.aspx?ln=3120498&curpage=2

I’m not saying it wouldn’t be comfortable, spend wisely and you aren’t digging change out of the couch to buy groceries…but its a long way from a gated community and a Lexus.

[Risha]

We’ve discussed this previously. This is what I said at the time:

I’m not sure that I would consider one’s actual education or occupation to be a delimiter of class, but I do think that the attitude towards them plays into it.

My father was the child of a vice president in a middling sized corporation and a law firm office manager. He dropped out of high school and went off to be a hippie. His siblings graduated and went to college, and went into business. He spent most of my childhood stocking grocery shelves to make ends meet, and later worked in asbestos removal.

My mother was the child of a concert violinist who eventually lost that job because of his alcohol problem. She graduated high school, but then also went off to be a hippie. Despite being very poor, most of her siblings ended up with degrees and jobs in computer programming or nursing. Mom cleaned houses until her health couldn’t handle it anymore, then worked as a clerk for awhile.

Despite being quite poor, we lived what I consider to be a solidly middle class lifestyle. Part of that was the unthinking assumption that I would go to college so that I would get a good job, and the cost never entered into it. (Anyone can afford college with enough loans and grants, I’m living proof.)

My older brother decided to follow in my parents’ footsteps and drop out of high school to travel around the country. Twelve years or so later, he is working an apprentice plumber. But his SO is a graduate student, and I would say that they live a middle class lifestyle as well. If they eventually have a child, I have no doubt that they will be expected to go to college and get a good job.

My step-father, on the other hand, comes from what I would consider to be the working poor. His father worked in a shipyard, and Kevin worked there for awhile before ending up collecting money from vending machines. He graduated from high school but never even considered college. His brother is an engineer, but in their family he’s the oddity (a good one) for having a college degree. It was a bonus that he chose to do that, not an expectation.

As for money… there were occasions during my childhood when we couldn’t afford a toy I wanted or to go to the doctor when I was sick. My husband and I are currently in the $150K a year range, own our home, have new cars, etc. Other than eating out a lot more, our day to day life isn’t that different. Money is only a small percentage of class.

[Lemur866]

@BoringDad

And I disagree with some of the other posters in this thread about the nature of class in the US. In the US, (unless you are talking about Old Money Families looking down on New Money Families), class is almost soley about money.

As long as we keep in mind the distinction between income and money.

No one can be truly rich if they have to keep working to support their lifestyle, even if they’re making millions. If you’re making six figures but are one paycheck away from forclosure on your McMansion then you’re not rich, no matter how many toys you own.

[Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus]

@Metacom

Anyone interested in class in the US has got to read this book. It’s short, amusing, and insightful.

With that book in mind, to me “middle class” means “pretentious,” “wall-to-wall carpeting,” “concrete driveway,” “manicured green lawn,” and “insecure about financial status.”

I love this book, mostly for Fussell’s witty and acerbic style. However, I consider it to be somewhat biased towards the Northeastern U.S.–not so much in that he seems to favor it, but rather in that some of the class signals he mentions don’t seem to apply as much, in other parts of the country. Still a fun read, though.

[ultrafilter]

I’ll second the recommendation for Fussell’s book. I’m only about halfway through but am enjoying it very much.