They are, and this “no true scotsman” crap has to stop. Kids are dying in there, and we’re still out here playing with words.
No true scotsman? That’s goddamn ridiculous. My whole point is that you are the guys “playing with words”.
Ok, tell me does the textbook/historical definition of genocide not include forced removals? Would you think that we could not round up some historians who would pronounce that deporting 400,000 immigrants is technically a genocide? A little over 400,000 was Obama’s top year.
…is that how you typically talk to your friends and family? Have you honestly gone up to your brother and said "“Hi, I’d like you to vote for the Democrat candidate …”
Because that isn’t how I talk to people I know. But you do you. I’m much more likely to send them a link to a tweet like this:
https://twitter.com/KatzOnEarth/status/1141155185835819009
And I’d explain to them that we don’t know if this is typical or not because there is zero real oversight of any of these camps. That these people were held like this for weeks. That congresspeople have been denied access to many of these camps, and we don’t even know where all of the camps are.
I’d talk to them the same way I’m talking to you, the same way I’m talking to everyone else who are reading this thread but not commenting. I am perfectly aware that you are going to argue with me and debate me because that is what you do. But my goal isn’t to convince you just as AOC’s goal isn’t to convince the people who will instinctively defend the status quo no matter what the reality is.
…I can’t find a single textbook/historical definition of genocide that fits the way you have defined it. Which one did you use?
Boy, you searched all those textbooks quick. Do you think the Trail of Tears was a genocide?
The Trail of Tears is probably not a good example for your claim that you don’t need mass murder for a genocide: Trail of Tears - Wikipedia
…are there specific textbooks you are referring too that you want me to look up? My question to you was “which one did you use?” So are you going to answer that question so that we can quickly resolve this?
In what way is the Trail of Tears comparable to Obama’s administration deporting people? And can you find any historian that would agree with you on that comparison?
@str8cashhomie
No, I do know it’s called “The Trail of Tears” for a reason. Part of the reason why we’re calling these places “concentration camps” is the deaths that have happened?
…so you can’t provide a cite?
They are calling these places concentration camps because they fit the definition of concentration camps, and because a number of historians concur that they fit the definition. That information is all provided in the OP, as well as by various posters throughout the thread. It has nothing to do with any “deaths” in the camps.
I guess what I was thinking of was a little more specialized, “ethnic genocide”, which I guess doesn’t get a lot of respect in the genocide community. Probably better described as “ethnic cleansing”, so I guess I concede this line of discussion unless you have something else to ask or say.
…fair enough. “Ethnic cleansing” would have been a better analog, I still would have disagreed with you, but probably not as vehemently 
No, the main reason we are calling these places concentration camps is that they are being used to detain civillians in a constrained area under inhumane conditions. A concise series of tweets that explains this: https://twitter.com/landrist/status/1141056586628194304
It happens that many claims that “they can’t be concentrations camps because there isn’t ___” are also mischaracterizations of what’s actually going on in these camps, as there has been starvation including death, forced labor, overcrowding, etc.
I predict nobody will be taking about this 2 weeks from now, so not much. Pretty much the same can be said of any flashpoint subject around Trump.
Untreated disease… I think we are seeing that, though it probably can’t be characterized as deliberate. Still, detain thousands people in bad conditions and this will happen.
Tell you what. Let these people out of detention and I’ll forget the whole thing.
Not only that, but historians are saying that this is the beginning of the camp system. That this fits nicely with the start of camp systems, that such systems inherently deteriorate, and that things are going to get a lot worse.
I must confess: part of my hope in starting this thread is that, in my own little way, I keep people talking about this. “Never Again” is not something I take lightly. This should not be a flashpoint. It’s a human rights catastrophe.
This coming from Mr. “Concentration camps should not be called concentration camps” is the ridiculous part.
A couple things:
-
You and you alone don’t get to redefine words. “Concentration camp” is a defined term and not even a new one. And given that we have reports of insufficient food, illnesses, lack of medical care, and so forth we might be closer to your definition than any of us would like. We don’t know how many people have died in these places because the government is refusing to release numbers, but we do know some people have died.
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I don’t care if you want to hear something like this or not - I’m not going to stop talking about it because it’s an ugly reality that needs to be dragged out of the shadows and exposed to the light of day.
Another historian in a mainstream news source weighs in.
But wait, there’s more:
(Bolding mine.)
Hmm. Fancy that.
The phrasing does, in fact, matter. People aren’t too worried about “detainment camps”, even if conditions are horrendous. They may raise an eyebrow at “concentration camp”. Hopefully enough of an eyebrow to look into the conditions at the camps. I have enough faith in humanity to believe that it’s impossible for most people to see the actual conditions at the camps and come away thinking, “Yeah, this is fine”, and, as usual, the problem often boils down to “people are getting all their information from the right-wing media sphere, and the right-wing media sphere is fundamentally dishonest”. If “concentration camps” pierces that bubble, good.
I’m hoping I’ll continue to be able to cite mainstream media articles here. It’s a sign that this continues to be an issue.
Also, something I found funny. A few people here are complaining about “ridiculous” comparisons to nazis. This was the common through-line back in 2016 when a few prominent people were worried that Trump will probably build concentration camps. Here’s Keith Olbermann.
HMMMMM.
Note the comments section, which has aged incredibly well.
Funny that the strict original definition is so vigorously supported in this one particular circumstance where the modern connotation would have maximum propaganda impact. Technically you are correct. Just like technically Switzerland is a 3rd world nation and the phrase begging the question does not mean raises the question yet is used as if it did.
But we all know that this particular pedantry is political Humpty Dumpstyism.
I predict people will be talking about it for a long time to come, simply because the migrants will keep coming and if something isn’t done to deal with this in a responsible manner, the situation will reach a breaking point and spill out into more public view.