What environmental issues can everyone agree on? Why do some not care?

I’ve been thinking quite a bit about how environmentalism is considered a “left wing” issue, and that disturbs me, a lot. It should be bipartisan. It should be EVERYONE’S. But instead, there’s this stereotype that conservatives simply don’t care, or think that the environment is completely subordinate to business matters. That kind of thinking disturbs me, because if that stereotype is false, then it’s leading to unnecessary barriers that prevent cooperation on environmental matters, and if it’s true… Well…

Anyway, it occurred to me that one of the main reasons for the gap is that people of different political persuasions can’t agree on what issues are really of serious enough concern to warrant the tough legislation lobbyists and Democrats often favor. So I’d like to toss this out, especially to our conservatives: what environmental issues do you think are of real, major concern to the country, and/or to the human race? If you don’t think the rainforests are being depleted (or that it’s important), what about global water quality and availability? If overpopulation doesn’t float your boat, does urban sprawl? What do you think we should be addressing right now?

As a subordinate issue, ARE there people who think the economy must trump the environment the majority, or all, of the time? If so, how can people so blithely ignore the environment, especially when things like air quality and toxic waste dumping have such immediate and dramatic impact, as opposed to the nebulous future many issues offer that lead to inaction? How can they NOT care?

First off I am very conservative on most issues (conservative southern democrat or Yankee Republican). However I am very liberal when it comes to the environment and preserving it for all species not just dumb ones like us…

Over development drives me nuts. Having planning commissions letting everyone have a free for all sends me over the edge. Whacking through good farmland to slap up some more half assed buildings instead of giving major incentives to go in and implement re-urbanization makes me want to reach for the valum.

I have a serious issue with over logging hard wood and not replanting and taking extreme care with land that has to be clear-cut and then make sure it is set out correctly again.

Money should be spent on developing new power sources.

I really think we should make marijuana legal and use it for fuel instead of being such a slave to oil. It is a crop that has multiple uses not to mention putting a smile on your face.

Legalization would also empty out a lot of the jails filled with people whose only crime is smoking something that they are actually getting off on.

I don’t know. I came from Reagan-Republican fundamentalist Christians, & it always seemed to me that respect for the natural world (God’s Creation, after all) should be a basic moral issue, transcending political questions. I mean, people can disagree over capitalism or communism, but how can you be indifferent to the extinction of species?

Here’s what I’ve put together over the course of my life; some of this is specific to US politics, some isn’t:[ul][li]Many of the masses of the Religious Right don’t care about the environment, because they don’t care about anything other than saving their souls from hell. They believe that not only their own lives, but the entire physical universe, is “a passing vapor.” Many’s the time I was warned not “to worship the creation instead of the Creator.” All this despite their scripture saying that the world is created by God, & loved by God.[/li]
(I really philosophically broke with these people when I came to understand the meaning of the word “worship.” I now believe that not to worship—that is, value—God’s work is to fail to worship him. But I digress.)

[li]Another worldview that fails to encourage biophilia & eco-consciousness is Descartes’s fallacy of a mechanistic universe, in which all non-human behavior is the workings of unconscious phenomena. Both the Hedonistic Utilitarianism of Bentham & Mill, & the “reason confers rights” morality of Kant, are built on this idea (obviously false to those of us who actually observe animals). When I took philosophy in college, my teacher said that Utilitarianism & Kantianism were the only two alternatives taken seriously by Philosophers. Oy.[/li]
Conservatives in the USA will tend to put more weight in the crackpots—excuse me, Thinkers—of the “Age of Reason” than those of the last century. Modern environmentalists are seen as dirty hippies, & many take on Cartesian thought out of knee-jerk conservatism (& the fact that they’re sometimes not even taught there are alternatives).

[li]Many people on both Right & Left don’t care enough about the environment, because they see the world in a self-serving “politico-economic” model, rather than a realistic biological model. The “environment” is to them just that: an environment in which humanity, which they see as the only important reality, exists. It will always be on the fringe of their moral universe, until it hits them directly.[/li]
[li]And many people in power are worse, & not just on the Right. Power is accrued by the acquisitive, for whom there is no guarantee of either scruple or wisdom. Many would honestly ask, “Why care about anything except yourself?” So for some, including those who buy political influence, “Science” is just a thing you can make money from. If it doesn’t produce wealth, it doesn’t matter.[/li]
(Put in the proper context, that last sentence seems clearly to describe an immorally selfish worldview. Put it in a economist’s mouth, & it’s a “principle” espoused as scientific & valid. Scary.)

[li]On another level, anyone “struggling to get by” in society may have apparently sound personal reasons for being more concerned with his own future than with something outside himself. They’ll protest that they’re not robber barons, & it’s not their fault. But they’re tripped up by their own ambitions—& maybe, for some, the nature of capitalist economics has them in genuinely difficult straits.[/li]
(So you have to get to these people on a personal level. It really is a matter of teaching people about wisdom. Sometimes you just need to make do with less & appreciate the outside world more.)

[li]And perhaps most importantly, the Left (in the USA at least) is theoretically defined by ideas like rights, principle, compassion, & openness to those unlike ourselves. The Right is theoretically defined by non-interference in business (which can be read as Avarice).[/li]
I’m not saying that to be mean. That’s how they define themselves. If the Left introduces a good & just idea, the Right reflexively fights it as unnecessary. Of course the wealth accrued by businesses is unnecessary, but you never hear that, do you?

[li]The simplest & sickest reason is that the GOP wants to be different from the Democrats in any way that will win votes. I’m not sure, but I think the Republicans shifted heavily into anti-environmentalist backlash during the Reagan years precisely because of the rise of environmentalism as both movement & public policy. More precisely, all those suspicious of environmentalism jumped out of the Democratic Party & ran to the GOP, where they started propagandizing the rest of the GOP to believe in the sacredness of “property rights”. The GOP saw a great potential constituency there, & let it happen.[/li]
(For any evil, there’s a fool advocating it.)[/ul]


Please note, I’m not saying the Left is naturally environmentalist, just that it has politically welcomed greens, where the right has turned away from them in the last generation. If a society defines Left as “progressive/humanistic” & Right as “conservative/religious” the political affiliation of environmental conservationists could as easily go the other way.

One would think international population control would be an issue we could agree on.

I always had a sort of half-hearted partiality towards environmentalism–until I had a hardcore environmentalist for a housemate. The guy’s sheer obnoxiousness made me proud to be a despoiler. He advocated a radical change for the world that he himself didn’t seem to embrace (He lived within easy bicycling distance of his job, for instance, but instead favored his car and its twenty-plus bumper stickers).

Later, I read pursuasive counter-arguments to a lot of common environmentalist arguments courtesy of the Cato Institute (Electric cars generate more pollution than comparably-sized gasoline cars, five of the ten worst Superfund sites were recycling plants, the famous bet between Julian Simon and Paul Ehrlich, etc). In my own life, I saw municipally-mandated recycling programs that failed because there simply wasn’t a market for the recycled goods; all the recyclables I had to separate out when I lived in Seattle* and DC wound up in warehouses and landfills. I work as a printer and know that while recycling newsprint makes young environmentalists feel warm and tingly at heart, the dioxins required to make grey paper white does Mother Nature no favors (although I’m becoming a bigger fan of soy-based inks).

It’s philosophically convenient to tie ozone depletion and global warming to the actions of rapacious white American males like me, but the data just isn’t conclusive. Ice ages and global warming happen cyclically, and human endeavor makes less of a dent than my old housemate would like to think.

And international population control boils down to fuzzy white people asking brown people to have fewer babies. I’d slam the door in their faces too.


*In the July 1993 issue of US MAYOR, Seattle mayor Norm Rice actually said “Our recycling program has been a great success. The only problem is that there’s no market for the recycled goods.” In the private sector, we have a name for that kind of success: We call it “failure.”

That was supposed to read *fussy white people, not “fuzzy.” Sorry 'bout that!

Erm, yeah. The recycling thing. There is a market, in that more of the packaging is still being produced. We can force companies to use recycled materials by ruthless manipulation of taxes & fees.

People using the failure of recycling programs as an excuse not to fix them is sort of like this:

  1. We have a theoretically good program.
  2. But we don’t run it like we should.
    >. Therefore, the theory must be wrong.

See:

http://www.edge.org/documents/archive/edge114.html

The first article re: Jared Diamond andyou m,ay have to use “real player” and listen to the article rather than read it as I did when send by a friend this morning.

He discussed the issue as a part of a larger question: “Why Do Some Societies Make Disastrous Decisions.”

Jois

**

There are many environmentalist who are watermelons. They use the banner of protecting the environment to push their socialist/anti-business ideology. That is very off putting to someone who likes industry and business in general.

**

On a day to day basis I’d say air quality worries me the most.

Marc

Oh I forgot about recycling. I have been taking all my glass and melting it down in my kiln and using them as wind chimes. My business partner and I are going to start selling them to benefit the local human society…:slight_smile:

I agree with the taxes and fees to make people use recycled materials.

What happen to the good old days when coke use to reuse the bottles. I remember as a child collecting them and turning them in for my candy money…

We need re-usable bottles again…:wink:

  1. If recycling is a good idea
  2. And it works the way I’m told it should
    >. Shouldn’t recycled goods be cheaper than non-recycled?

If not, the theory is wrong and force is the only way you’ll get companies to comply. Forcing too many companies to comply with too many things that defy both profitability and common sense is a very major reason that ecology-gutting Republicans are currently in power. I promise you one thing has plenty to do with the other. Environmentalists are asking the general public to take too many dubious assertions on faith, hence massive disagreement on environmental issues.

The right generally has a lot more faith in market self-regulation than the left.

For example, I have heard it said that we do not need to worry about species going extinct because of commerce, because by the time a species gets rare, the price will have gone up insanely and the market will dry up. This goes in direct contridiction to any number of species we have managed to hunt to exitinction, but they don’t seem to notice that.

Another example is that many believe that the free market will develop solutions to environmental problems once it starts to affect people (which of doesn’t take in to account how it affects animal or plants). For example, I’ve heard it said that we will have developed new farming techniques by the time our farmland erodes away.

Basically, they believe the market can fix any problem that affects human, and that if it doens’t affect humans, it isn’t a problem.

“The world is a corpse. Who can turn away the Angel of Death?”

You are misrepresenting the free-market position. There’s nothing that says that the market will protect all species. But what some people have said is that if you give people ownership of game areas, you give them an incentive to maintain the game populations IF there is a commercial value in that game.

I notice we kill a lot of cows, but there seem to be a lot of them. Do you think that if cows were as valuable as they are, but they were all wild and had no owners, that there would still be cows? Look what almost happened to the Buffalo before they were commercialized.

Another distortion. Many free-market economists recognize that there are true market failures, where the costs and values of products are either not known, cannot be quantified, or are so distributed that they don’t affect decision-making. They argue that if you CAN come up with a way to make people truly pay the total costs of the pollution they emit, then you could let the market control it.

This is the theory behind pollution credits. Let’s say you decide that you want to have an overal pollution level of X, and there are Y businesses contributing pollution to the environment. You set up a pollution market, with each company getting X/Y pollution credits, and no more. Now, companies can do one of two things - they can lower their own emissions, or they can buy pollution credits from other businesses who have a surplus of them.

The advantage here is that not all companies can reduce their pollution with the same level of efficiency. So, some companies can reduce a lot, and make a profit selling their pollution credits. Other companies who can’t reduce pollution as efficiently may find it better to simply buy pollution credits on the market.

The alternative is to simply pass minimum pollution laws, and force all companies to comply. This is not nearly as economically efficent. In the end, both plans wind up with the same overall pollution.

And yet, many environmentalists oppose pollution credits, and dismiss them out of hand, because they distrust the market.

Hmmm. . . no “we” don’t. this is a big part of the problem: people (on both sides of the issue) who are quite ignorant and go around repeating things they know little or nothing about.

Glass has practically disappeared for soft drinks in favor of cans and plastic and for good reason. Glass breaks. Every glass bottling plant has a floor full of broken glass which has t be swept clean regularly. I have worked at bottling plants and once slipped and fell flat on my back on a floor full of broken glass.

Reusing glass bottles is a nightmare. First you have to get them back to the plant. A coke plant would get maybe 80% bottles of coke and 20% of other brands because they are not well sorted out to begin with. The average life of a reusable bottle was only about 6 - 7 refills. Then they have to wash those bottles which costs money and is never 100% effective. Some things are notoriusly difficult to get out of bottles. I remember cigarrette cellophane wrappers were particularly difficult to spot and often went out again with the beverage. Soft drink manufacturers do not need or want that kind of problem or publicity. New bottles are simpler, cleaner, cheaper. Recycling glass is one thing but reusing bottles is not efficient at all.

In any case, glass has given way to cans and plastic which are not reused but are recycled.

I have not met anyone, save people making harmless jokes about melanoma in Australian/South African sunbathers, who disagree with the 1987 Montreal Protocol to cut ozone depletion. It is very genuinely our only protection from some extremely harmful radiation.

Similarly, acid rain and smog appear to be universally discouraged.

Most everyone also seems to think that mass extinctions are a bad thing (given, for example, how many new human medicines are developed from natural extracts each year), but perhaps disagree about how best to minimise them.

However, it must be said that this is one issue in which the American right is way off kilter with global mainstream opinion, preferring to cite lone clowns like Bjorn Lombourg than an International Climate Change Comittee comprising hundreds of the world’s experts on climatology, for example.

Sam Stone’s (rather good) post talks about marketable pollution permits, which are a viable alternative to taxes on emissions. There are of course practical problems with such approaches, and some amongst the left are uncomfortable with using the market to address environmental problems (or are using the issue as a political stalking horse). One important limitation on the use of permits is doubt about whether they will be enforced - an advantage of taxes over regulations and permits is that governments have a transparent continuing interest in the area. If markets don’t think the permit scheme is a genuine property right, the whole thing will fall over.

If you can get a permit scheme working, it’s a flexible system: if you find in ten years time that the amount of permits is too high, no problem, just buy some. This is all well and good as long as the government auctioned the permits in the first place. What industry wants of course is to be given the permits. It’s the usual public good story - everyone tries to avoid being the one who pays to fix the problem, and everyone misrepresents the costs and benefits of the policy.

Thank you for pointing that out. See you learn something new every day. Yea for can & plastic recycling…:smiley:

Here’s my take. I’m pretty conservative on most issues. Some times, extremely so. I’m all for the environment. I don’t think it’s an issue that right-wingers don’t care about the environment. It’s just the solution that they don’t like. An example from a recent Northwest issue: Would I like to save the salmon? Of course, why wouldn’t I? Am I willing to breech the dams, putting hundreds, if not thousands, of farmers out of business? Hell no! Let’s face it, there are many times when it’s us or the environment, and in those cases, I choose “us.”

That’s not to say we shouldn’t be working on things. I think our government needs to spend more time, energy, and money developing alternate fuels and energy sources for vehicles, housing, etc. But, at the same time, I also think we need to lessen our dependance on foreign oil and drill our own land. Funny, but I only seem to hear (and don’t take this as gospel) the environmentalists complain about drilling a small section of Alaska. They can drill the hell out of the Middle East–no problem. Just desert anyway, right? But don’t you dare touch Alaska!

The fact is, we need to do it all. Drill our own oil, then lessen our dependancy on it by developing alternative fuels. Seems like in today’s political climate, it’s on or the other. Too bad.

I thnk the most common split is that conservatives often think that environmentalists ignore economic consequences of regulation, while environmentalists think that conservatives ignore the environment in favor of economic interests.

Also, for some of us, we get annoyed that environmentalists seem so dogmatic about many things. Take the arsenic flap last year. The administration’s argument was quite logical - no one was going to raise the arsenic level, but they wanted to waiit until an economic analysis was done to see what the best tradeoff was. The environmentalists went bananas. The administration had some good arguments. For example, is it correct to set one level for the entire country? In some areas with naturally high arsenic levels, it could be extremely expensive. In other areas, the lower standard was easy. So if environmental choices are an exercise in cost/benefit analysis, surely one standard shouldn’t apply across the country, right?

Another argument was that if you mandated levels of arsenic that were too expensive to attain, some poorer areas would resort to just having people drill their own wells, with no arsenic treatment at all.

Then there was a question over how much arsenic was acceptable. That issue was not clear at all. Before spending huge sums of money to achieve a certain level, isn’t it reasonable to do enough research to know what the benefits of that level are?

These are reasonable arguments, at least worthy of debate. But all we got from the environmentalist side was, “Bush wants to increase your arsenic!!”

A lot of conservatives also have a problem with the ‘precautionary principle’, which seems like a rather luddite, anti-growth idea.

And finally, another problem conservatives have with mainstream environmentalism not that they want to protect the environment, but that their solutions almost invariably involve massive government intrusion into the marketplace.