What exactly is 'elitism'? (Not a rhetorical question.)

[XT]

I distract easily…and I think I’ve already addressed your questions up thread.

Obama does not come across as an elitist anymore than Hillary and McCain do.

Well, IMHO he does actually, but mostly because they are able to play a role he isn’t. Or perhaps a better way to put this is Obama is playing a role…but he’s playing the role of B. Obama, which he is obviously good at. While Hillary is playing the role of good ole gurl and woman of the people. McCain is playing the role of Methuselah, but it’s one he’s well suited to…

He may come across as more eloquent and office-professional, but eloquence and office-professionalism =! elitist.

Why? Because you say so? Is this your opinion or do you have something to back it up with that people don’t look on ‘eloquence and office-professionalism’ as being elitist? Or that these are the only factors that makes Obama seem an elitist?

The way politics have become now, you’re either branded a beer-guzzling “man 'o the people” or a high-falutin’ elitist.

Well…yeah. Water is wet to, last time I checked. These are POLITICIANS…they are branded one way or the other. And that beer guzzler good ole boy image is still pretty powerful here in the US…as is the intellectual elitist. It appeals to me anyway…and I think if folks were being honest on this board they would agree it appeals to them to.

So Obama has to be the latter, because he ain’t acting the part of that there other group.

Obama couldn’t get away with trying to portray himself as a good ole boy…it wouldn’t work for him. Not strictly because he’s black either…it’s just not in him. Kerry was the same…no way he could re-package himself as a beer drinking good ole boy and have it work.

Some voters are able to see the folly in this portrayal of personalities. Others apparently are falling for it the same way they did the last two other times we’ve danced this ridiculous dance.

Well…again, yeah. Of course. Different personalities or roles are going to appeal to different types of peole. I already said that that folksy, good ole boy stance is repugnant to me…and probably to a lot of the folks on this (rather elitist, IMHO ) message board.

-XT

[you_with_the_face]

@xtisme

Why? Because you say so? Is this your opinion or do you have something to back it up with that people don’t look on ‘eloquence and office-professionalism’ as being elitist?

Just because some people (including yourself, apparently) may look at X and see Y doesn’t mean, in an absolute sense, that X looks like Y.

Let’s go over that again.

Just because some people may look at X and see Y doesn’t mean, in an absolute sense, that X looks like Y.

Subjective interpretations that are the product of bias (including prejudice) should not be mistaken for objective fact. I’m sure some people think Obama looks like a gangsta thug. Shall we offer this as proof of anything more than the stupidity of some people’s small minds? I mean, we can state over and over again that some people see him that way, but it doesn’t mean that view is valid or justified. It doesn’t mean that we have to treat it with respect or consider it reasonable. It doesn’t mean we can’t call the people who somehow think that way racist morons.

And yeah, I know everything I’m saying is right because I say so. Moving on…

Obama couldn’t get away with trying to portray himself as a good ole boy…it wouldn’t work for him. Not strictly because he’s black either…it’s just not in him. Kerry was the same…no way he could re-package himself as a beer drinking good ole boy and have it work.

Of course not, but the point is that it’s ridiculous to expect him to do that anyway. It’s like expecting a white politician to package himself as a wanna-be black person from da hood in order to escape charges of racism.

If I were to accuse McCain or Hillary of looking racist because they don’t speak in Ebonics when they address black audiences or have photo ops at Sylvias, eating fried chicken and cornbread, I think most Dopers would gladly play kickball with my ass. Calling Obama elitist-like because he doesn’t put on any good ol boy affectations is just as wrong as calling McCain racist-like because he doesn’t kiss Al Sharpton’s ass or listen to hip hop.

And once again, I know everything I’m saying is right because I say so.

[sqweels]

@xtisme

I think it’s more a way of saying ‘you are different than I am, and you think you are better than I’.

But you agree that it’s childish and, in the course of a debate, amounts to a logical fallacy to change the subject like that.

Fair…FAIR! Ho, boy! This is politics here…there is nothing particularly fair about it. And even if we leave aside the politics, there is nothing particularly fair about some good ole boy with a char of redman in his cheek, drinking some horse piss American beer and watching monster trucks and resenting some ivory tower intellectual type for smoking a fine cuban cigar while drinking expensive 25 year old single malt whiskey and watching a foreign film…or from that same ivory tower intellectual type looking down his nose at the hillbilly.

I’m glad you concede my point. And since we seem to be on different wavelengths, I’ll concede yours: Yes, it’s a potent political reality. Or rather, weapon.

If a person who has been born to a high station in life adopts a snobby, superior attitude and looks down his nose at others assumes he’s entitled to a position of authority, then that’s what I’d call elitism and it is, if you will, a sin. But if a person works hard to become successful yet maintains a humble, easy-going attitude despite adopting refined tastes in entertainment and beverages, and expresses opinions about how best to order society and help the less fortunate, then accusing him of the sin of elitism amounts to bearing false witness and is the real sin in that case.

In other words, this whole “elitist” thing is just another example of jerkitudinal spin from conservatives.

[Mr.Moto]

@sqweels

If a person who has been born to a high station in life adopts a snobby, superior attitude and looks down his nose at others assumes he’s entitled to a position of authority, then that’s what I’d call elitism and it is, if you will, a sin. But if a person works hard to become successful yet maintains a humble, easy-going attitude despite adopting refined tastes in entertainment and beverages, and expresses opinions about how best to order society and help the less fortunate, then accusing him of the sin of elitism amounts to bearing false witness and is the real sin in that case.

In other words, this whole “elitist” thing is just another example of jerkitudinal spin from conservatives.

Not just conservatives - didn’t John Edwards have a whole campaign dedicated to this concept of “two Americas”?

Wasn’t this an explicit accusation of elitism (of whatever variety) on the other side?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

First of all, Edwards is right about the “two Americas” thing (I don’t see how anybody could honestly deny that), and secondly, he didn’t try to paint that divide as ideological or political, but purely economic. He didn’t say conservatives were elitist, he said that America is divided into a de facto economic class system, which it is. Reagan destroyed the middle class and we’ve been dividing more and more into corporate feudalism ever since.

[sqweels]

I’d rather side-step the whole Obama thing and focus on this “liberals are elitists” meme. Apparently, all the liberal positions amount to one group of people looking down on…“you”, and saying, “we know what’s best for you because we’re better than you”.

But among conservatives, even as there’s still plenty of traditional elitism (meaning support for the rich), there’s as much if not more of this “neo-elitism”.

For starters, there’s the whole range of Religious Right issues. They don’t just act morally superior, they insist they’re views are the Word of God, and so it goes without saying that their way is what’s best for everyone.

They tell pregnant women and girls that carrying to term is always what’s best for them, and trying to scare them out of abortion is called “protecting their right to know”.

They act like experts in what causes homosexuality, and tell gays that what’s best for them is abstinence and averson therapy.

In opposing medical marijuana, they’re telling cancer and AIDS patients what’s best for them.

And in foreign policy, look at the elitism of the neo-con agenda. We invaded Iraq because we know what’s best for the people of the Middle East.

Perhaps most elitist of all is school vouchers. My kids have to opportunity to go to elite private schools, so I should be able to cannibalize the budget of the public schools to pay for it, and I don’t care what happens to the ordinary kids left behind.

Conservative positions often appear to be about elevating some people and keeping others in their place, while liberals want to elevate everyone. Just because you can’t afford it doesn’t mean you’re not worthy of medical care, and so on.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

I think the accusation that liberals are elitists amounts to nothing more than the resentment that stupid people always have for smart people.

[sqweels]

@Mr. Moto

Not just conservatives - didn’t John Edwards have a whole campaign dedicated to this concept of “two Americas”?

Wasn’t this an explicit accusation of elitism (of whatever variety) on the other side?

No, at best it was implicit. If you’re conceding that it’s wrong to go around calling people “elitists”, then we should start by going after those who are most blatantly and explicitly abusing the term.

And anyway, Edwards was decrying an economic divide with an eye toward mitigating it, not condemning certain people for having a haughty attitude. Haircut or no haircut.

[XT]

@Diogenes the Cynic

I think the accusation that liberals are elitists amounts to nothing more than the resentment that stupid people always have for smart people.

Not only did you manage to blow up my new, industrial strength irony meter but you ruined my monitor (Dr. Pepper sprayed at close range and with significant force) AND I nearly busted a gut to boot!

Quite an accomplishment for one brief sentence I’d say…

-XT

[Kevbo]

@Diogenes the Cynic

In Obama’s case, “elitist” is a code word for “uppity.”

Bingo! I was beginning to think I’d make it all the way through this thread without this obvious point being made. Paired with the Rv. Wright baiting it is no wonder HRC is tauting her popularity among the white trash. (of which I consider myself one)