What, exactly, is "graduate school"?

[Thudlow_Boink]

@LifeOnWry

Associate’s degree is from a 2-year college… can you get an associate’s in a four-year college? Or would you skip that and just be working toward your bachelor’s at a four-year school?

With a few exceptions, I’m pretty sure four-year colleges (the ones that DO award bachelor’s degrees) do not award associate’s degrees. There’d be essentially no reason to get an associate’s degree if you were going to just keep on studying at the same institution.

I seem to remember some classes at the community college being transferrable, and I believe it meant those classes you took at the community college level DID count toward your bachelor’s should you transfer to a four-year school. Am I correct there?

Yes, essentially. Whether or not a course will transfer is at the discretion of the school you intend to transfer to, though having an associate’s degree makes it more likely that things will transfer, and there may be special agreements between particular junior and upper-level institutions about transferring coursework, and in some areas there things set up to standardize transferability (for example, the state of Illinois has www.itransfer.org.)

If you’re at a community/junior college working toward an associate’s degree, the courses you’d be taking would be pretty much the same as what you’d take during your first two years at a four-year, bachelor-granting school.

[eleanorigby]

@Evil Joe

An associates degree is usually a 2 year degree and typically technical in nature. A Bachelors degree is like he said a 4 year degree. However an Associate to Bachelor degree is not usually a straight progression. For example having an associate degree will not usually put you 2 years into a 4 year bachelors degree.

Nursing would be an exception to this. There are vast number of “bridge” programs available now, to take Associate degree’d nurses to the BSN level. You do get credit for the courses you took, but must take the sciences that were not included (typically organic chem and/or physics), the theory classes and the research aspects (statistics, independent study type of classes).

Not everyone enters grad school in a related to field to the undergrad (bachelor’s) degree. I am in grad school now for library science, but my bachelor’s is in nursing. In my program, we have medical doctors, lawyers, system analysts, graphic designers, teachers --lots of variety.

[Harriet_the_Spry]

@carterba

lots of work for little pay.

This is an excellent answer to the OP’s specific question: What, exactly, is “graduate school”?

[Thudlow_Boink]

@Evil Joe

An associates degree is usually a 2 year degree and typically technical in nature. A Bachelors degree is like he said a 4 year degree. However an Associate to Bachelor degree is not usually a straight progression. For example having an associate degree will not usually put you 2 years into a 4 year bachelors degree.

I realize now that what I said about an associate’s degree is at odds with what Evil Joe said. I was speaking mainly from my own experience, teaching at a two-year college where graduates typically do go on to get a bachelor’s degree (or to something like the nursing programs eleanorigby mentioned). An associate’s degree from my institution typically would put you 2 years into a 4 year bachelor’s degree. But there may well be places where Evil Joe’s version is more accurate.

[Billdo]

@Thudlow Boink

I realize now that what I said about an associate’s degree is at odds with what Evil Joe said. I was speaking mainly from my own experience, teaching at a two-year college where graduates typically do go on to get a bachelor’s degree (or to something like the nursing programs eleanorigby mentioned). An associate’s degree from my institution typically would put you 2 years into a 4 year bachelor’s degree. But there may well be places where Evil Joe’s version is more accurate.

I think the transferability of two-year/associates programs is a big “it depends” thing.

I understand that in some states all credits from public two-year community colleges are guaranteed to transfer to the four-year state college/state university systems. Where there is any other type of transfer (whether from two-year school to four-year school not in the same state system or from one four-year school to another), the receiving institution will evaluate the credits previously received and may or may not accept all of them.

As with everything in American higher education, there are numerous variations and exceptions.

[LifeOnWry]

We are probably going to insist that our daughter do two years at the community college level - for one thing, she’s young for her age, for another, her grades are not likely to win her any financial opportunities. However, we’re hoping that high school is just “not her thing” and she will get her act together a bit more in college… and I’d prefer not to be paying university tuition while she gets herself on track. I do want her to have the option to transfer to a university if she does get it together, though.

Thanks for all your answers!

[zut]

@Billdo

I think the transferability of two-year/associates programs is a big “it depends” thing.

It depends, I believe, on the two-year program you’re in.

Using my local community college as an example, you can enroll in their Pre-Engineering program and graduate with an Associate of Applied Science degree. These courses also transfer directly to in-state four-year universities. The intention here is not so much to get the Associate degree as it is to get through two years of basic engineering program at a less expensive local institution.

In comparison, you could enroll in the Automotive Body Repair program and also get an Associate of Applied Science degree. The courses in this case are much different; I imagine only a few will trasfer to a four-year school and even if they did, only a few would be applicable to a four-year degree. But that’s not the point, because the intention here is to learn a trade, not to transfer to another school.

[scotandrsn]

@LifeOnWry

OK, let’s see if I’ve got this so far:

Associate’s degree is from a 2-year college… can you get an associate’s in a four-year college? Or would you skip that and just be working toward your bachelor’s at a four-year school? I seem to remember some classes at the community college being transferrable, and I believe it meant those classes you took at the community college level DID count toward your bachelor’s should you transfer to a four-year school. Am I correct there?

Depends on where you are.

California has a very carefully worked out program whereby classes you take at any of the community colleges transfer for credit toward specific requirements at either of the state university systems, and my impression is that most people at the community colleges are there to fulfill those requirements, although there are also plenty there to receive an Associate Degree.

In my former state (Massachusetts, not Catatonia), my understanding was that you were on your own as far as getting any four-year college to honor your CC credits.

@LifeOnWry

You’d then get your bachelor’s degree from completeing a four-year plan at a university, right? Am I also correct in assuming that you’d have to be completing a specific four-year plan to get that degree - in other words, you couldn’t just take random classes, the degree program would specify a curriculum for a degree in arts, science or…are there others?

What if you just go to college for four years (and of course, pass the classes you take)? Is there a “general education” degree equivalent to a bachelor’s?

A number of schools have a General Studies major. Harvard, for example.

@LifeOnWry

And finally - graduate school, where you’d pursue your master’s and/or doctorate: I understand med school or law school, but can you also pursue those degrees at, say, a state university?

Some state Universities have their own Med School and Law School. UCLA, for example.

[pravnik]

@Chronos

Neither of those is a real doctorate, since they do not entail an original contribution to human knowledge. An exception is made for the MD degree, by long tradition, and it’s at least the terminal degree for its field. But there is no rationale whatsoever for calling a JD degree a doctorate, beyond the lawyers who named the degree deciding that they could get paid more that way.

I’ll go you one further; referring to a JD as a doctorate is technically incorrect. It’s not a doctorate.

The first professional degree conferred by American law schools is a Juris Doctor, not a Juris Doctorate. A lawyer writng a resume should refer to their “J.D. Degree” or their “Juris Doctor Degree.” “Juris Doctorate” is an error. A terminal academic degree in law, such as a Doctor of Jurisprudential Science or its equivalent, may properly be referred to as a doctorate.

[Hypnagogic_Jerk]

@Northern Piper

Which is why in Canada, only the wankers at U. of T. get the JD - as far as I know, all the other law schools give the LL.B. - because it is the introductory level degree in the field of law.

FWIW, the University of Ottawa gives both a LL.B. for those who study Common Law and a LL.L. (Licentiate of Laws, I believe) for those who study civil law. They also have a “national program” (joint LL.B./LL.L.) and a joint LL.B./MBA program, which is interestingly a joint undergraduate/graduate program.

[NinjaChick]

@LifeOnWry

What if you just go to college for four years (and of course, pass the classes you take)? Is there a “general education” degree equivalent to a bachelor’s?

A few schools (as mentioned) do offer degrees like this, though I believe it’s fairly rare.

There’s also the bizarro school I go to (St. John’s College). The entire curriculum is predetermined - all students take 2 years of Ancient Greek, 2 years of French, 4 years of a philosophy/literature class, 4 years of math, 3 years of lab science, and one year of music theory. When we graduate, we’ve got a relatively solid background in all sorts of stuff. Our degree is a B.A. I don’t know if it’s “liberal arts” or just…a BA.

[Northern_Piper]

@severus

FWIW, the University of Ottawa gives both a LL.B. for those who study Common Law and a LL.L. (Licentiate of Laws, I believe) for those who study civil law. They also have a “national program” (joint LL.B./LL.L.) and a joint LL.B./MBA program, which is interestingly a joint undergraduate/graduate program.

I’d forgotten about the LL.L. - but don’t most of the Quebec law schools now give the LL.B. for civil law? (except McGill, which uses LL.B. for the common law and B.C.L. for the civil law?)

[BlakeTyner]

I’ll add what I can, as a fresh University graduate.

Texas is another state that has a pretty well-thought-out structure for community colleges and major universities to follow. There is a Texas Common Curriculum scheme, whereby ENGL1301 at UT would be ENGL1301 at Panola Jr. College, Texas A&M, etc. The numbering and general concept of the class is the same. It facilitates credit transfers, as well. I’m not aware of any classes at an accredited institution that just do NOT transfer within the state; at worst they’ll transfer as electives.

Where I got my BA, the Associate’s Degree was not so much touted, but it was possible to get one. Mostly, it was for people who decided to quit before their bachelor’s degree, but had enough credits for an AA or AS.

The system in Texas is pretty good about the Common Core Courses; at just about any school, regardless of what degree you’ll end up with, you need something like:

9hrs of English
3hrs of math (Statistics/Algebra or higher)
4hrs of lab science
Phys Ed + 1 or 2 activities
3hrs of history
3hrs of psychology or sociology
A few more hours that I’m sure I’m forgetting

Add in a 6 hours of an elective, and you’ve pretty much got an Associate’s Degree. Had I done that, it would’ve put me halfway to my BA in English, and I could have finished college in 2 years (or less) at the University. As it stood, I took roughly 23 hours at a junior college and the rest of my 120 hours at a four year school. 120 total hours for a BA/BS is fairly small; I know several hard science majors that needed at least 160 hours for their BS, and the teacher education program typically involved 160-180 total hours for the BSE.

It’s important to note that the core courses go for EVERYONE. A biochemistry major still has to have that 9 hours of English. I majored in English, so I ended up with that 9 hours, plus another 30. And, I still had to do my lab science. So I had 4 hours in Biology, while a Bio major would have had that 4 hours plus another 45 or 50.

Graduate School (the next step after finishing your “undergraduate” education) is, typically, where you make a shift from being a consumer of knowledge to a producer of knowledge. That happens, somewhat, at the Master’s level, but is really emphasized at the Doctoral level. I’ll be going on in either English or Psychology (one of my undergrad minors) and the two programs in graduate school are pretty different. In English, I’d be expected to do pretty much all of my research in a library, looking up dusty old tomes of a) original material (say, “Hamlet”) and b) as much of the critical thought on “Hamlet” that I could find. Hamlet is a bad example, because there’s such a huge volume of study on it, but you get the idea. I’d then have to come up with a theory, and argue it. I couldn’t very well use the old “Hamlet has an Oedipus complex” thesis, because there’s nothing original in it. I’d have to find a new/unexplored avenue. “Hamlet was actually a homosexual, because of XYZ” or something (though I’m sure even THAT’s been done.)

For Psychology, I’d do a lot of book research in the library, but I’d also be expected to conduct my own, and produce my own data through surveys, interviews, and the like. I’d compile statistics based on my data and come to some conclusion. To my mind, that’s more labor intensive but “easier” to do. The Psychology angle also lets me get away from the foreign language requirement of English work. I need 2 years of University foreign language; I have 1.5 years, but could probably demonstrate competency. Psychology is a little more stringent with the math, over the foreign language. Tomayto, tomahto.

I’m not sure if anybody mentioned Seminary, either, which is basically grad school for religion majors. They award the PhD in Theology and such.

[Hypnagogic_Jerk]

@Northern Piper

I’d forgotten about the LL.L. - but don’t most of the Quebec law schools now give the LL.B. for civil law? (except McGill, which uses LL.B. for the common law and B.C.L. for the civil law?)

I don’t know, but I’ve briefly checked, and it appears that the University of Montreal, UQAM, Laval University and the University of Sherbrooke all use LL.B. for their bachelor of laws. So it seems that you’re right, for the French-language universities at least.

severus, B.Sc., M.Sc. and current Ph.D. candidate

[Northern_Piper]

@BlakeTyner

I’m not sure if anybody mentioned Seminary, either, which is basically grad school for religion majors. They award the PhD in Theology and such.

It may just be regional variations, but the seminary I was at as a resident didn’t award doctorates. If you came to it without a prior degree, you earned the L.Th. (licentiate in theology). If you already had a bachelor’s degree, you earned the B.Th. (Bachelor in Theology). The reason for this approach is similar to the LL.B. - even though you might have a prior degree, the theology degree is a specialised one, and the B.Th. was the entry level degree for theologs. I think they also awarded a Masters, called an M.Div., but weren’t big enough to offer a doctorate. Other seminaries offered that, but it wasn’t called a Ph.D. - I think it was a D.S.T. - Doctor of Sacred Theology.

[Billdo]

@BlakeTyner

I’m not sure if anybody mentioned Seminary, either, which is basically grad school for religion majors. They award the PhD in Theology and such.

Actually, a friend of mine just got her Ph.D. in Theology, which was an academic degree given by the graduate school of arts and sciences in her university. Although it was a Catholic university, it was not a seminary.

I believe that Catholic priest candidates attending seminary usually obtain an S.T.L. (Licentate in Sacred Theology) degree, and that protestant seminaries often award a M.Div. (Masters in Divinity) degree, and some award a D.D. (Doctor of Divinity) degree as well. There are also masters and doctoral degrees in religious education, pastoral counselling and the like.

[whole_bean]

@Chronos

But there is no rationale whatsoever for calling a JD degree a doctorate, beyond the lawyers who named the degree deciding that they could get paid more that way.

Given that this is GQ, I just gotta ask for a cite . . . or is this just rectal oration? Lawyers have done a pretty good job of protecting their profession from non-lawyers and are therefore able to do a lot to influence fees regardless fo the formal name of the degree, which one would only see if looking at a lawyer’s resume. Some American law schools still award LLBs (Yale, I think still does) and LLMs are common for specializing, say in Tax or Admiralty (ironically, you would get it after your JD). It’s my understanding that in days of yore, when LLB was the standard, legal doctorates were largely honorary degrees.

[whole_bean]

@Crescend

In the US, when someone says “graduate school”, they usually mean a post-graduate program that awards degrees other than Law or Medicine. Although these degrees are technically “post-graduate”

I do not believe a bachelor’s degree is a requirement for most if not all medical schools.

[DSYoungEsq]

Well, there is trouble with the LL.B. degree, at least in the US, because you would be obtaining it after having already obtained a Bachelor’s of something. So, the thinking goes, you deserve more than a Bachelor’s for going an added three to four years to post-graduate schooling.

So, the thinking is, what about an LL.M.? Well, this gets problematical for a couple reasons. On the one hand, an attorney really does more work (trust me on this!) getting his license to practice law than the typical Masters candidate does, as evidenced by the time factor if nothing else. On the other hand, the law school student isn’t really doing what a Masters degree candidate is doing. A Masters candidate is learning in depth information about a subject they already have more than a passing knowledge of (usually; we will ignore the MBA for now), while a law student is exploring a whole new field at the msot basic level. So a law student both does more and less than a Masters candidate, and needs something other than a Masters degree.

Juris Doctor may seem a bit pretentious (you’ll note no attorney runs around insisting he is a “doctor” or has a “doctorate”), but lawyers do tend to envy medical doctors, so I suppose it isn’t too surprising to see the degree mirror the MD degree’s terminology.

The basic history of the degree in the US can be read at Wikipedia. Notice that Yale gave up the LL.B. in 1973.

[TYOV]

A degree of any kind is documentation that you have some level of competance in a particular field. The higher the degree, the greater your knowledge. If I walked into Lockheed Martin and told everybody that I know more about aerodynamics than anyone else on the planet, they’d laugh at me even if it was true. I’d have to go to an accredited institute of higher learning and demonstrate my knowledge. If the board of regents agreed, they’d give me a PhD (doctor of philosophy) degree. Then when I go back to Lockheed they’d listen because some institution they recognize certified me.
Getting all those previous sheepskins isn’t technically required. The Dalai Lama didn’t go to formal college. The monks trained him. When he was finished, he showed his skills to all of them. They gave him a Master’s Degree in Religion. It used to be that a Master’s meant you had enough knowledge to be able to teach. Now universities pretty much require a PhD to be a professor. It used to be a PhD meant you were able to advance the field of knowledge in the subject. Now you kind of have to do that at the Master’s level. A Bachelor’s means you can apply the knowledge. An associate’s means you’ve been exposed.