Cecil doesn’t like them much either. I’m not saying that they’re not a religion, or that they shouldn’t be a religion. I’m also not saying that individual Scientologists should be persecuted for their beliefs. I know some Scientologists, and they don’t seem disturbed or dangerous. I just include Scientology in my personal list of useless/possibly harmful religions. Along with Baptists and lots of other “conventional” religions. It’s just a matter of opinion. This thread doesn’t really belong in general questions, it should be in IMHO, because that’s what all this is- a matter of opinion. I think southern Baptists are silly because they can’t dance or clap. I think Scientologists are silly because, well, there’s lots of stuff about them that’s silly. And even if they are recognized as a “real” religion, they still sound a lot like a cult, according to the definition in my sociology book-
So that’s why I don’t like them. I just don’t. That’s my opinion.
Are you serious? I mean, if something is different from things you’re used to that’s a problem? I’m sorry, but this smacks of extreme bigotry on your part. Moreover, it’s extremely dismissive of the point that other religions get money from people in other ways. Just because you’re familiar with those techniques, that makes them unproblematic?
No they don’t. You aren’t REQUIRED to go through their program to be a member of their religion. This is absolute nonsense.
It’s like criticizing seminaries for charging money and demanding people devote their life to the church of their choice. People CHOOSE to spend their money they way they want to. There is no one putting a gun to your head saying that you must fork over the money.
No, that’s an interpretation. I don’t think you really want to get into a discussion of the finer points of plagarism, but there is plenty of law to go through. They made their case in court and that’s that. How is that a “problem”?
You could say that about any religion. Are you saying that all religions are problematic? How do you define “brainwashing”? I know plenty of people who would argue that they were “brainwashed” into giving their money to a certain church. Should they get their money back after donating to Benny Hinn Ministries?
Nonsense. You’re simply making up your own definition of religion. Religion is defined and scientology fits the definition. If you want to offer a different definition, go ahead, but realize that it’s not legal.
They also ask people to donate every minute of every day.
The SAME ARGUMENT can be said about many other religions which remain protected in the USA, and RIGHTLY SO.
So, altruistic religions are not allowed to bring up copyright suits? Okay, then I guess that theologians who publish have a problem. If you want to be consistent, that’s the name of the game. Either you equally apply your standards TO ALL religions, or drop your case.
Since there are contemoraries of Hubbard who claim that was his motivation, and I know of no claims that Jesus or Muhammud were in it for a buck, I’d give Scientology a much higher probability of being a money-grab. Plus the fact Hubbard died a multi-millionaire is a clue, too.
IMO, space alien religion wackiness trumps any supernatural religion wackiness.
Don’t get me started on “cults”. Most sociologists in the field don’t even use the term anymore. It’s a loaded label that came out of Evangelical Christian Churches in the 1970s redefining Weber’s work and using it to fight against growing New Religious Movements. They were afraid at the time that the young people in Evangelical Churches were being too easily recruited by NRMs. So they worked tirelessly to discredit new religions as dangerous. The blatant stereotype remains in our culture, unfortunately in my opinon.
There is a reason the Cult Awareness Network was sued out of existence (and taken over by the Scientologists, btw). They were behaving inappropriately.
Are some NRMs dangerous? Perhaps, but so are some Old Established Religions too, I’d say.
You’re entitled to your interpretation. Should I pull out some selective Bible quotes that seem to indicate that infanticide is okay? Pslam 137:9 anyone?
We know very little of the circumstances surrounding the founding of Islam or Christianity in comparison to Scientology. It is an accident of history that we have independent corroborators surrounding Scientology. It’s patently unfair of you to simply discriminate based upon the fact that the religion is new. Islam and Christianity have had hundreds of years to iron out the things that were problematic. I mean, there were early Christian cults that drank semen during the last supper. If that happened today, many would probably immediately label the religion as problematic or dangerous.
You just have more distance and the religion is an accepted part of society. As Scientology continues, it too will become more and more mainstream. That’s the way new religions work. They adapt and change to make themselves palatable.
Same probably could be said of Muhammed. Anyway, he was a best-selling author. And since when is it problematic to die a multi-millionaire when founding a religion?
Why? What makes one more wacky than the other? They are equally unprovable. Space aliens can’t be disproven, neither can a supernatural deity or Santa Claus or the IPU.
seaworthy
And you are entitled to it. But, you said you don’t think they should be recognized as a religion. I think you are being unfair. Do you think that Baptists shouldn’t be recognized as a religion either?
It’s not merely the fact they are different, it’s how they’re different.
Yes they do. Whether they require you to go all the way through the program or not, they still charge for you to go through it.
Walk into the CoS and see how far they let you go without giving money or massive amounts of volunteer work. Now walk into a real church and quietly let the collection plate pass you by. You aren’t REQUIRED to give a dime to a real church, in order to sit there and be enlightened. The CoS charges for their scriptures. Bibles are provided for free.
It’s a “problem” because it’s supposed to be a church, not a greedy multinational corporation. Post the entirety of the Bible on the internet, and “fisk” it line by line, explaining how it’s all hooey. Who’s gonna sue you?
Sleep deprivation is a tactic utilized by which other religions?
seaworthy’s definition of “cult” seems to fit the bill.
So? That’s not even remotely the same as charging for copyrighted scripture.
Okay, please make the same argument for Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Show how they exist solely for the purpose of making money.
The difference is so plain, you are coming across as obtuse. No. An altruistic religion would NOT SUE you for publishing SCRIPTURE.
That seems to be a prayer by a Jewish exile after Babylon destroyed Jerusalem. I could pray till I was long in the tooth for the God of the Bible to do unspeakable things. Would those prayers be reflective of the God of the Bible or me?
I have seen people in flee markets “giving away” free therapy. You want to hear the sound of crickets, ask them if they are scientologists.
JS Princeton, If you truly know nothing about scientology then you’re devils-advocate approach in it’s defense is truly amazing. However, it does nothing to answer the question of any potential dangers involved.
JS Princeton, you’ve been busy. I won’t go through all your posts line-by-line and deconstruct them, but I will make my own points very clear and I will respond to specific questions and debates with them entered into in good faith.
[ul]
[li]Scientology is directly responsible for the death of at least one person. That person wasn’t killed by loonies in the name of Scientology, or even deragned ministers acting `out of school’. She died in direct accordance with Scientology teachings, particularly the Introspection Rundown.[/li][li]Scientology harasses those who criticise it, to the point of making death threats and killing their pets. They run people’s names through the mud and they do their best to make the critics appear to be horrible, horrible people.[/li][li]Scientology does not allow people to leave. It considers lapsed Scientologists as being nearly as bad as psychologists.[/li][li]Scientology pursues punitive lawsuits and refuses to pay what the court orders it to. It engages in barratry and does its best to subvert, pervert, and invert the legal system of every country it moves in to. Look up Larry Wollersheim for an example of this.[/li][li]Scientology keeps much of its dogma and practice secret. Moslems don’t cover up Muhummad, Christians don’t make a secret of Christ, and Jews don’t profess ignorance of YHVH when asked for information. The only other groups to have trade secrets are businesses and criminal organizations.[/li][/ul]I’ve listed those roughly in order of importance. Notice that I never mentioned copyright directly, and that the murder of one of its members tops the list.
I think everyone on a specific side of this discussion wants a strawman. Let me point out a huge one erected early on: Other religions kill people and act nasty. Or have in the past. Sometime. HEY, LOOK AT THOSE CATHOLICS!
I don’t care if other religions have done it. It’s wrong, and any group that does it now should be punished. I don’t care if it’s Catholics, Protestants, or anyone else. Scientologists have done it, and they aren’t above the law because they cling to the mantle of religion.
The same argument is made by white supremicists. Bigotted when they say it, bigotted when you say it.
And how, exactly, is that different from a seminary?
Let you? What are you talking about?
Listen, I’ve walked into many CoS. I’ve never been kicked out. I haven’t lifted a finger, I haven’t paid them a dime. I’ve talked with people. They’ve pressured me, I’ve said no. It’s really quite simple. Ready? You don’t have to do what they ask or tell you to do! It’s as simple as that.
Hmm, don’t know about that one. My 85-year-old grandmother gets a guilt trip every month from her AoG, and she’s on fixed income. Is it required? Nah. But then, they tell her that they “worry about her soul” if she isn’t a “cheerful giver”. I don’t think it’s REQUIRED in the CoS either. We’re talking about common practices of “religious extortion” here.
Not universally, at all. In fact, I’ve been to churches where they’ve asked me to purchase their literature just like in the CoS. What I want from you is an admission that such churches (and believe me, there are a lot of them) are just as dangerous.
So, if a greedy multinational does it it’s okay, but if a church does it, it isn’t? I’m sorry, I fail to see the logic in that.
No one, because the Bible isn’t copyrighted. Post the Harry Potter books online and “fisk” it line by line and you may have a problem. Why should a church not be allowed to do what J. K. Rowling is allowed to do?
Well, certain Christians rely on that technique to become closer to God (the praying of the hours).
You show how the Scientologists exist solely for the purpose of making money. I have shown how Christians and others have shown how Jews attempt to get money from people. Why is it so hard to understand that it’s the SAME THING?
No, I have been very clear about my reasons. Insulting me is not going to make your argument hold water.
Says who? You. Fine. But that’s not a legal definition of a religion in any sense of the word. I say it’s just another way of running your religion.
Does an altruistic religion damn people to hell for not belonging to their religion?
Actually, the text reads, “Blessed is he who dashes the little baby’s head upon the stone.”
As in, God blesses you when you do that.
Now, you can play apologetics games on that, but the point of the matter is that so can the Scientologists on their Fair Game doctrine. We should at least play by the same rules. If Christians can do it, Scientologists should be able to too.
I never said I knew nothing of Scientology. I study it a lot. I am not a Scientologist.
Scientology may be dangerous. So might Christianity. I think they deserve the same consideration in that regard and it is blatant religious intolerance to not do that.