Or for that matter , why not do it with native Americans, lots of native slaves. I would guess I wouldn’t fly too well, and a lot if people would be a little surprised too
My guess is bc it’s just not the majority of the group.
There’s a lot if inconsistentcy in what I see, but this is the only way I can explain it.
Show me where I got it wrong, not like you haven’t done that already before.
I’d pay to see that 
That’s doesn’t make the “white culture” any clearer at all.
when you use the phrase “white culture” in such a broad-brush manner it certainly sounds like you are. You still haven’t defined what you mean by “white culture”
If you bundle all skin tone changes under the banner of “blackface” and consider “blackface” to be a terrible thing regardless of context and intent then sure, you can make that statement becuase you’ve defined the offence into existence.
What’s more it allows you to accuse anyone with a more nuanced view of racism or similar malice. That’s handy for you, no analysis required.
Absolutely not self-evident at all.
If I asked you to transform yourself into an accurate portrayal of real-world or fantasy characters I suspect you would place “value” on pretty much every aspect of them if you were seeking to be accurate. I see no reason why the average person would place greater “value” on skin tone over the “value” of hair or costume or build or accent or mannerisms.
Here’s Harry Enfield as Nelson Mandela
Racist? not racist? acceptable to you? not acceptable to you?
It occurred to me that outside of probably a rare few people who just aren’t bright and likely aren’t even present here. Failure to see something objectively is usually because of strong feelings on the matter.
Which would make it likely that if someone says “if you’re trying to look like someone and you don’t ignore their skin tone you have some kind of problem” which is logically nonsense, it’s probably because of their feelings. Basically evidence that they are in fact offended by it and that the root is feelings, not logic. No matter how much they argue the contrary.
It’s not logically nonsense. The point is that if you can successfully capture a character or celebrity’s essence without slathering ugly paint on your face, then you’re going to look stupid and awkward when you choose to slather ugly paint on your face.
The most successful costumes, IMO, are those that tell you exactly whom is being impersonated with the least amount of fluff. Skin color is “fluff”, unless you’re dressing up as a fictional being like Shrek.
And maybe it’s just me, but I much rather go to a costume party where people feel clever and liberated enough to go as characters they look nothing like naturally, than to go to one where everyone sticks with characters they most closely resemble. A tall Asian guy dressed as Mini Me, a curvy white woman dressed like President Camancho, and monstro dressed like David Bowie are going to be infinitely more interesting to see than a bald white guy rather predictably dressed like Mr. Clean.
You seem to be assuming that paint on your face is inherently “ugly” and that one way is in some way “better” than the other.
You are free to dislike how a person dresses themselves but your “ugly” “stupid” “awkward” opinion is merely that. Not everyone thinks or reacts that way.
Sure, it could be done badly and with malice but equally it could be done to excellent artistic or comedic effect and with the most benign intentions. I think I’ll just judge each case on its own merits.
Here’s the thing. We do not have weekly or even monthly meetings of the Social Justice Warriors league. We do not sit around and decide what terms or phrases to be offended by, we do not determine when it is appropriate to use makeup to alter skin tone. No matter what you do, even if you manage to convince everyone in this thread that there is never anything to be offended by, that isn’t going to change the fact that there are still a couple few million people out there who are not part of this conversation.
You seem to complain that there are people who will judge you by the actions that you choose to do in public. Well, complain all you want, they aren’t going anywhere.
What we are trying to give is advice, on what will offend, and some reasons as to why that would be. You can criticize this advice, you can complain that this advice makes it unfair for you and your dreams of cosplaying a black character, but that won’t change the fact that the advice is sound, if you don’t want to receive flak for how you decide to present yourself.
Then the goalposts are moved, not from what I can agree is offensive and shows bad judgement, to what you read some person out there with a blog said once, and you demand that we justify what you remember that one guy said.
If you wear blackface, I will not be personally offended. It is not mocking me or my ethnicity or culture. But I see that it does, and that it shows poor judgment to do so. If you are criticized, then it’s not like you were not aware that you would be.
You may as well complain that water is wet and winter is cold, and be upset that we advise you to put on a jacket if you are going out. We are not trying to restrict your freedom of clothing choice, you are welcome to wear shorts and a t-shirt out into the blizzard, but you should be aware that there may be consequences.
Now, as far as those consequences, we can give you some advice on how many people that you will piss off. If you wear stereotypical blackface makeup with the lips and do some mocking singing and dancing, you are going to piss off pretty much everybody. If you wear a wig that is not of your ethnicity, there may be somebody out there that chooses to bring attention to themself by criticizing you. Then there is everything in between, and it is a judgement call. Most people were okay with Tropic Thunder, but I am aware that there are those who were not, even some who have boycotted Downey Jr for it.
the thing is, is that it is a judgement call. Not matter how you do it and how respectful you are, there will be some who are offended. Depending on how sincere your reasons are, and how respectfully you do it, you may offend more or less. However, if you have difficulty even understanding why such things would be offensive, then you are demonstrating a lack of that capacity for judgement, and it is best you just stay away from it all together.
The idea that Sailor Moon is better played by an Asian girl, when the character has long blonde hair and blue eyes, is interesting. Granted, she’s not 300 pounds, but I see a lot more slender and gorgeous Sailor Moons than the 300+ sized ladies at cons anyway, despite reputation and people posting photos to make fun of on the internet. I’d probably say I see as many “crossplay” (gender swap) Sailors as very plus-sized sailors.
That said, I mostly go to comic and anime cons, not sci-fi. The brown-painted Geordi was kind of scary looking, but I do have to admit he didn’t look like he was trying to be racist at all. In that case, maybe it can just be described as a terrible, terrible idea all by itself. I’d note the Data with him doesn’t really look much better… even if there’s a smaller reason to cringe at that. I’m glad they wanted to try, but I think Geordi is going to be obvious just from the visor and the costume; how many people with that visor were in Star Trek? If Geordi’s alone in wearing a visor, that is more distinctive by far than his darker skin.
I do think it’s a little sad that a white little boy who grew up loving Black Panther (surely there are some?) may have trouble doing that costume… but the odds he doesn’t also love Spider-Man or Wolverine or Superman or someone else who is white are pretty small. There are just so many white-appearing characters available, and yeah, even in foreign produced works where you’d think everyone should be Asian.
So while that one Black Panther loving fan may be a little unfortunate, he has a lot of options. The black fan who loves Batman has fewer options, even if he’s just looking for well-known black characters within the whole Batman mythos. It seems fair he should get a chance to be Batman if he wants to, given that most of the big name heroes are white anyway. And the white fan who wants to be Black Panther has a lot, a LOT of other options.
Re: Arthur. Most of what we think of as Arthur’s legend has evolved over time, due to influences from the rest of Europe and indeed the world. Forget black people, plate armor is ridiculous in an Arthurian story based on the time period and location. But the legend of Arthur evolves with the times, reflecting more recent ideals of a knight on horseback, and interactions with knights from around the world.
The original Arthur might not have hung around with a lot of Moorish knights, but he wouldn’t have been hanging around with a random French dude named Lancelot, either.
No I’m not assuming that. If you have access to a professional make up artist and high quality face paint, you might very well be able to pull off a realistic complexion outside of your natural one. But most people don’t have access to these things.
But even if you do have access, my point is that it’s gratuitous to go there for most cosplay.Whenever someone treats what is gratuitous as necessary, they run the risk of looking foolish to a lot of people.
You, personally, may not agree people look foolish when they do this. But that doesn’t change the fact that others see different.
Sorry chief but I have no interest in playing your little game where I constantly have to define white culture to your satisfaction while you sit back and pretend you don’t understand my point. I have defined it as much as I am willing to for this particular subject. Perhaps this would be a good time to point out that you seem to be the only person in this thread who has issues with this.
If I was tasked with transforming myself into a character I would place “value” on the things I felt most defined that particular character…skin color is not one of those things. For people who think blackface is acceptable, skin color is one of the things they place “value” on. I do not consider any form of blackface to be a nuanced view of racism. I consider it to BE racism. You are free to disagree with me but your disagreement does not change my position on the subject.
After 40+ years of being black in America I no longer have the energy, patience or desire to judge individual acts of questionable racial behavior. If I see someone in blackface I’m not going to stop and interview them about their thoughts, feelings and beliefs. If you can’t be bothered to give a damn about how and why you might be offending someone then I can’t be bothered to give a damn about why you’re doing it. I’m just gonna assume you’re racist and keep on steppin’
TL;DR
I don’t give a damn about your intentions and no one owes you the benefit of the doubt. Especially when you behave in a questionable manner.
I think this is an important and critical point. Given out national history, there are certain things that whites people should not expect to be given the benefit of the doubt for.
We as observers are not obligated to look “into your heart” to determine whether you are truly racist. You and I live in the same world. We expec my you to act with knowledge of the context of that world.
And, again, to the dissenters: nobody is physically stopping you from wearing brown makeup. You CAN do it.
We’re explaining to you WHY you WILL receive an extremely negative and possibly hostile reaction to that, and why most of us will consider a negative reaction perfectly justified.
It’s possible there will be a day where racial harmony is such that the echos of blackface have grown silent. In that day, it’s possible a white guy could put on some brown makeup and pretend to be a black character and nobody will bat an eye. We aren’t there. And it’s NOT your job as a white guy to tell black people how they should feel about it.
It isn’t a game. You use an imprecise term and refuse to define it.
Well you haven’t defined it in any meaningful way.
And what exactly is it that you think I have issues with? It is perfectly possible for someone to change their skin tone with racist and malicious intent and when that happens it should be condemned. I simply don’t join in with your blanket accusation of racism in all circumstances. It matters how it is done and why it is done. Truly, if intent doesn’t matter then all human interactions are screwed.
I suspect that many people would use the term “blackface” in a much more narrow manner. i.e. merely making your skin darker (and there can a variety of reasons for doing so) would not be “blackface” for them, I don’t think you get to choose their definition for them.
Just so I’m clear, any form You didn’t respond to the video I posted, do you think that is unacceptable?
I don’t believe you. I challenge you on that. I think you would treat people differently based on their intent if they were to explain it to you.
I think that is a bleak and negative approach to life but then I’m not from the USA so maybe you think that is the best path forward for your specific situation.
After several centuries during which Europeans first invented the concept of whiteness and then used it as a weapon to visit hell on earth against non-whites as a group, and in a current reality in which nonwhiteness is still a factor in systematic physical and non-physical violence throughout western societies, this is an irresponsible approach.
You simply want people to ignore the realities of cultural history and their daily lives to give you personally the benefit of the doubt. It’s spiteful of you to even ask for it.
It has been repeatedly explained to you that doing so in public WILL have the consequence of upsetting, offending, and angering people and reminding them of systematic oppression of people of color throughout the western world.
With that knowledge, ANY “intent” you have is now marred by the fact that you’ve willingly privileged YOUR desires over the feelings of others. You don’t now get to choose to pretend you don’t know that. If you darken your skin to emulate the complexion of a person of color, you ARE now intentionally offending people. You are making a choice to cause upset or even remove the sense of safety for people of color.
At best, you CAN make an argument that an IGNORANT person unaware of the history and connotations COULD paint their skin and be relatively blameless UNTIL the context is explained to them. You do NOT have the luxury of claiming that same ignorance. You don’t even NEED to understand WHY it upsets people – you merely need to be aware that it will. And you are.
If you paint your skin to emulate another ethnicity, you are now acting with corrupt intent.
Is it POSSIBLE to mitigate that? Arguably. Tropic Thunder and It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia both arguably “pulled it off,” but only by featuring it in a context of very carefully highlighting just how ill-advised and taboo it is. And both still did upset some people. If you feel like you have a performance with the same level of nuance, care, and awareness…well, go for it. But, based on your posts here, I really, really don’t believe you do.
Anybody else half offended by Frank Gorshin’s character in Star Trek?
Of course. The real question is: which half?