I still don’t see it as a good equivalent analogy. The swastika you mention is part of various ethnic decorative traditions and if I saw it used as part of an ethnic wedding outfit say, even if worn by someone not of that culture, I’d have no issues. The context is crucial. If worn as part of an overall cultural costume in a context that backs up an implied threat (as you put forward) then I’d probably be very suspicious of their motives.The meaning of the swastika is entirely dependent on the context in which it appears, as is a blackened face. Some people think their own experience of it confers an objective reality to it and that it can only be interpreted in one way. I don’t think it does.
Just like the naming of your child “Swastika” that must be wrong in all cases surely? No-one can be that ignorant of history. Well…no, that’s not the case at all.
The people of Austria would be horrified and probably make it illegal but it doesn’t mean that it is always wrong to do so. They also outlaw the use of the swastika in general which I think gives it a power that is utterly undeserved but if an Austrian were to comment on its use in the rest of the world I’d be putting forward a similar argument to them that I use against the blanket condemnation of darkening people’s faces for legitimate reasons.
I can actually see someone who attends these conventions being so out of it socially that they may actually not be aware of the offense, and not have anyone that would tell them of it.
Yeah, that would just be a rude thing to do. He may not win the costume contest, but if he wants to portray his favorite character, then the fact that he is not a physical match for it should not cause you to criticize him for just showing up.
Don’t fight the hypothetical. Man, you LOVE to slightly modify what people say to make them easier to argue with. You should probably try to be aware of that habit. You’re like a guy who goes to a debate smuggling a bale of hay to try to stuff under his opponents’ shirts when nobody’s looking. It doesn’t actually work.
To restate:
You see a white guy wearing a t-shirt with no cultural adornment but an orthogonal swastika. He directly tells you, “I just like how it looks and want to wear it. I’m not going to a ‘culturally-appropriate wedding’, but I’m certainly not a Nazi.” You believe he is sincere.
This thread is making me think there are a lot of people who become Judgy McJugdersons on Halloween. “How dare that little handicapped boy try to perpetrate like he’s Harry Potter? How you gonna call yourself Harry Potter when your ass is in a wheelchair! What, he thinks he is too good to dress up like Magneto? Someone needs to show him a mirror and remind him of his place!”
Balls to that, You got an honest and full response to your original hypothetical and it applies equally to your modified version. i.e.
That’s an honest answer and I can’t help that you don’t like it but it is utterly impossible to give a fuller answer unless I know the full context and details of the situation, which is why I expanded on your modified hypothetical to better explain my thought process. Worth noting though that the response I’ve given to your hypothetical, deficient though it may be, is far more than I got for my car-crash hypothetical from other posters. To that? answer came there none.
You do know that this is a consistent position of mine throughout? I would hesitate to leap to a judgement on a situation that is as scant on context as the one you provide in your hypothetical. I might condemn them as racist and run a fucking mile or not.
If you’ve already decided that I believe he is sincere then haven’t you already decided what my reaction is going to be and assumed I’ve got enough context to make an informed decision? Depending on the myriad complexities of the situation I may not actually believe he is sincere and even if I did I might tell him it is a bad choice, a bold choice or an idiotic choice depending on…you know…the context.
I think you meant Xavier not magneto. See, all white people just look the same to you don’t they?! Can’t even tell apart a guy in a wheelchair.
I’m just teasing, of course .
No, that’s not how hypothetical work. You don’t change the hypothetical to answer the question that you want to answer.
If, after answering, you decide to create your own counter hypothetical, and expand upon it, that’s fine. But what you are doing it avoiding the question by changing it.
No, you just ducked the question.
BeagleJesus, the person you asked it of, did answer. You just didn’t like the answer. I also replied to his/her answer, adding my own opinion to it.
What context is missing? You are given the scenario and the reasons, what else do you need before you can decide whether or not you will tell this guy, “maybe that’s not such a great idea.”
Talk about fighting the hypothetical. :rolleyes: one question, you see this guy walking out the door. You know that he is sincere in his enjoyment of this symbol. Do you recommend that he change shirts, or do you send him out into the public?
Ah, so not about accuracy, just about your desire to body shame. That has nothing to do with blackface, cosplay, or costumes, and is pretty off topic.
This is rich. I answered your initial hypothetical in full. You didn’t like the answer and so tried again by changing it and then even pre-supposing what my reaction to it would be and then including that in the hypothetical. Astonishing. Still, you get the same answer and still don’t like it. I just can’t help you any further with this.
The questions you asked and the answers I gave are clearly there for everyone to go back and read. The question I asked regarding the car-crash and the non-answer I was given are also there for everyone to read. I leave it to the comprehension of the impartial reader to divine how it actually panned out.
I have nothing more to add because you are now either unable to follow my words or misrepresenting what I wrote. I mean, FFS, in your criticism of my answer you don’t even quote my answer. The one I helpfully re-quoted myself.
If you think you or BeagleJesus answered my question in a similarly direct way then it would have been simplicity for you to quote them and correct me. Feel free to do so, I don’t think you can.
All the relevant points I want to make have now been are there for all to see and I find that when I reach to point of repeating myself and having to defend that what I actually wrote, is what I actually wrote then it is a waste of finger movement to continue, there’s no further progress to be made.
Sorry chief, I’m with K9 on this one. My position on this subject literally cannot be any more direct and I have stated it multiple times in multiple ways. I even tried using an analogy one time…it didn’t go well for you. Instead of having to correct you it would be far simpler if you would just pay attention the first time and stop trying to reframe the argument so that your position is more tenable.
I thought it was awfully on topic as an example and in response to the poster who brought it up , used to show just how often people do in fact get out in public without being advised of any bad decision.
I have very little problem with body shaming ( made up word combination to enable whining) I smoke ,it’s as bad or worse for my health than obesity but I don’t cry about it when people shame that , that is beside the point. I also don’t bother doing it myself and I’m often the guy sticking up for anyone being picked on bc it’s just not necessary.
Regardless of your body type, belly pajamas on a guy in public will be a funny look, and people will laugh. If i was the guys friend I would have advised against it, because i know people would laugh.
The Gucci shirt makes a better example, you know no company who wants to make money purposely made their shirt look like blackface, and you know if someone had brought it up they would have erred on the side of caution.
Yet, this thing still made it all the way into their catalog.
I’m also not sure why you’re arguing something you agreed with.
unluckily for you the things we both wrote and particularly your double evasion of my straightforward question are there, in black and white, upthread. Indeed, you explicitly said, in CAPS of all things that you refused to answer it.
All a matter of record, go back and read it. I’ve nothing else that I need to add.
Considering that it wasn’t even my hypothetical, I didn’t even give a hypothetical, that was another poster, I don’t think you have any clue what you are talking about here.
Any reformulations were to help you with the confusion that you seems to be having with a simple question, to eliminate all the distracint variables that you keep adding in to it.
But, anyway, it doesn’t matter, you refuse to answer a simple question with a yes or no, that’s fine, I can’t make you or anything.
Just be aware that you did not address typoink’s hypothetical in the slightest.
Right, the question that was asked of you is there to be seen, and your dodging of it is also there.
The question you asked about the car crash was answered in full by BeagleJesus, and added to by my opinion on it.
As far as an impartial observer would be considered, if they are still confused as to why blackface is offensive, after not only years and years of history to work with, along with our arguments in this thread, then they will probably lack the comprehension required to divine anything at all.
For your car crash hypothetical. The straight answer is No. It does not matter why you hit me, the damage is the same. My whiplash doesn’t care if you had a stroke or if you were inattentive. My mechanic is not going to charge me differently based on whether you were diligent or negligent when you damaged my car.
Why should I care why you hit me? Either way, I am put out. I’m not going to beat you up or anything because you were texting, so how am I going to treat you any differently if you were having a stroke? (well, I’d be quicker to call 911 for a stroke)
The law may treat you differently, but I am not going to. Why should I? What are you going to do to someone that hit you because they were texting?
That’s not really an answer. I did not misrepresent anything, but you may be confused, as you keep conflating me with another poster, so I don’t know if you are talking to me, or to the other poster that you seem to think is me.
You were the one that seemed to have trouble understanding why blackface was offensive. We did our best to explain.
Now that you have decided to become hostile because we could not explain it to your satisfaction, then no, there is no further progress to be made.
You too bub. Go out wearing blackface all you want. Remember to report back on how it goes.
Well, I disagree that that is a bad decision. And, so, apparently, did the person that you are making fun of right now.
He just wanted to have some fun, harmless, not bothering anybody. You also seem to want to have some fun, but to have your fun, you have to put down other people.
I have much more respect for a person who wears Spidey PJ’s with his gut sticking out than the person who insults them for it.
All words are made up. As well as you fabricating the intent behind it in order to insult and demean.
No one is crying, that is another thing that you have made the decision to make up and throw out there in an effort to prevent productive discourse.
As a long, long time but now ex-smoker, I know what you mean. Sometimes, people would say you should stop smoking, even some would coug as they went by. In theory, they are worried about your health.
What you are doing in telling a person that he is too fat to pretend to be spiderman is different. You are not worried about his health, you are not suggesting he lose weight, you are telling him that he looks stupid because he’s too fat to be spiderman.
I may advise against it if he is going to a job interview, but if he says he wants to go out and play spiderman, I’m all for it. Assholes may laugh, but fuck them, they are pieces of shit who are just jealous that they don’t have the balls to be spiderman.
Yeah, that was pretty stupid on their part. I have no idea what they were thinking.
I don’t really feel negatively in general towards… lower-effort or intro level cosplay. If a person’s love for a character comes through, I really am just happy they’re expressing that love and feel comfortable doing that in public. I addressed non-typical Sailor Moon cosplayers because someone else brought it up. But I feel the same about the heavy Sailors as I do about the crossplaying ones–good for them, they’re having a good time and getting to express another side of themselves, reflecting a character.
The Geordi is a fan, not trying to make fun of the character; I’m pretty sure of that. I do think even if he’s kind of… sheltered from others, someone at some point must have brought this up to him? Maybe not. And maybe it was too awkward to talk about, when he was at the con, and he seemed so sincere?
That’s one downside of convention and fan culture, a bunch of us (including me) are super socially awkward and so mistakes are made. In my case, going overboard in pointing out the high quality and often attractive nature of serious cosplayers and thus sounding like the cosplayers who are more casual or less body-typical aren’t acceptable. While contacts, an official Star Trek costume and poor makeup don’t really make for a very complex or advanced costume, or even what I’d consider a representative costume, if I saw the Data I’d probably just think it was nice he was getting to dress up as Data.
Even if I saw the Geordi, I realize, I’d just stare and think it was a terrible idea, and then walk quietly away. Maybe that’s what happened, the whole con.
Also, I’m super super ugly and fat, if that helps.
