There is a significant difference between saying “group x is label” and saying “group x has demonstrated a specific pattern of behavior.” The difference is that few of us are claiming that Jews are “better suited” to any task, only that the Jewish community has a tradition that directs the majority of its members to engage in particular pursuits. Saying that “Jews” are “money hungry” simply applies a stereotype that indicates a personal quality that will be used against all members of the group. Saying that “Jewish culture emphasizes education” is a demonstrable claim. Jewish kids being sent to additional school on weekends to provide more education (generally in Hebrew and the Torah, but still education) than they received in the public school system is an example of such an event. Jewish literacy (even if it is in Hebrew and Yiddish and Ladino and not the local languages) was much higher than that of the general population prior to the advent of universal education. These are observable phenomena. Jews had a higher percentage of college graduates, even when many coleges discriminated against Jews, prior to the post-WWII GI Bill college boom.
I would agree that a statement that “Jews” are “smarter” than other people is open to serious challenge. “Jews” are “greedy” can be dismissed as rampant foolishness. A statement that the Jewish community, (particularly Ashkenazim in the U.S., but with plenty of evidence for a parallel phenomenon among the Sephardic communities, (in the U.S. prior to the Russian emigration and in Western Europe and the Middle East since the 15th century)), displays a serious dedication to literacy that exceeds the literacy of the general population, is pretty well demonstrable.
I’m somewhat dubious about the “Jews are encouraged to read & learn” argument. I’m also dubious about the “that’s because historically that’s the only job they were allowed to do!” argument.
Readin’ & learnin’ don’t adequately explain to me why Jews are over-represented in certain fields. Most Americans are encouraged to read & learn. Jews are what, 2% of the US population according to the OP? (I always thought it was more like 4%, but not being Jewish, I’m probably ignorant)
I think that except for Nobel Prizes, it’s mostly nepotism at this point. I was watching a documentary on the diamond trade a while back, and I got the impression Jews were big in the diamond trade in NY, which seems to be a major center for diamonds entering the US market. Why Jews? Because of their readin’ & learnin’? I’m pretty sure if I studied up on gemology I’d still have a hard time breaking into the diamond trade without the right sounding last name, familial connections & friends.
Hollywood executives? How related is that really to “historically, Jews were big in theater?”
I’m not sure what your question is regarding the first sentence.
The second sentence (particularly as expanded in your other comments) needs to be addressed on a case by case basis. I really doubt that it was reading that got Jewish immigrants into the manufacture of clothing, into Hollywood, or into the diamond business or into banking. There are other prompts for each of those specific occupations and their involvement with the Jewish community. In a similar way, there are specific reasons why high iron workers have a disproportionate number of members of the Mohawk nation, Greeks traditionally dominated sponge fisheries, Norwegian immigrants were primarily farmers while Polish immigrants tended to get into the auto industry (with numerous exceptions to all those events).
The prevalence of Jews in a widely distributed number of occupations that require literacy, however, can be directly attributed to a culture that promotes literacy. Clearly, there is more to it than that they were not “allowed” to do anything else. The Jewish tradition of literacy extend back over 2,100 years. There were specific laws passed before the birth of Jesus and shortly following his birth that called for the establishment of schools throughout their country. The Jewish cenrters in Babylon (from the sixth century B.C.E.) and Alexandria (fromthe second century B.C.E.) were actually built around schools. In the Diaspora, Jews often became merchants as communities attempted to maintain contact with each other and literacy is a strong element of mercantile trades. Further, laws passed in Europe between the seventh and twelfth centuries made it difficult for Jews to maintain farmlands, forcing them into the cities where literacy gave them an edge in becoming merchants, clerks, and accountants at the same time that they were driven away from agriculture where literacy was less important and before mass manufacturing made unskilled labor a serious option.
It wasn’t really a question. The theory was put forth that Jews may be over-represented on the SDMB because they’re encouraged to read & study & learn. This would make sense to me if we’re talking 2,000 or 1,000 or maybe even 200 years ago, but it doesn’t make sense to me now.
When we talk about Mohawk ironworkers, Greek fishermen, Norwegian farmworkers & Polish autoworkers, it all seems very temporary. It’s the best job in town so everyone does it. I don’t think 1,000 years from now people are going to look back and say, “of course Mohawks are ironworkers and Greeks are fishermen and Norwegians are farmers and Poles are autoworkers because, historically…”
Statements about people which start out “historically…” kinda bother me in our current, modern day-and-age. Anybody can be anything and I’m a bit suspicious of groups who are “historically” good at something.
Mohawks have been ironworkers for less than 100 years and only about a quarter of their community’s workforce is in the industry. Greeks have been fishermen for centuries I’m sure, but the sponge fishing industry in the States was relatively short-lived, wasn’t it? It was more like a “Gold Rush.” Norwegians have probably been farming for centuries, but heck, who hasn’t? Polish automobile workers? How long has that industry been around? If a new, local industry opens up then sure, lots of people flock to it.
I can see how literacy guided Jews towards certain literacy-abled occupations 2,100 years ago. But now? Virtually everyone reads, with a few shameful exceptions in our national education system.
But this is all ancient history up to the middle ages. What I’m having a hard time with is understanding the correlation between ancient literate Jewish merchants and current-day Hollywood executives, lawyers, doctors, bankers, etc.
“Although it may not be true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative”–John Stuart Mill …
I guess the simple fact is that a site like this that calls for intellectual discussion and inquiry will attract the intelligent conservatives, but probably will not attract the huge, basically stupid and uninformed conservative constituency that conservatism and the religious right depend on.
For one thing, you need to be fairly literate to write intelligent sentences. If Goerge W. Bush with his short, simplistic answers seem to make sense to you, if you still believe that Iraq had WMDs, etc. then the chances are that you do not enjoy writing. You likely find spelling and composition difficult and frustrating. So you are not likely to enjoy posting on a site like this one.
By the way, a site like this fits in very well with the Jewish love of learning, debate and freee exchange of ideas. So there pobaly ARE slightly more than 2% Jews among the SDMB membership. But my feeling is it would be 10%, maybe.
First, we have two separate questions, here:
Why are Jews very successful in current society?
and
Why are Jews highly represented on the SDMB?
The first of those questions has to do with specific historical paths leading to specific interests, investments (of time, energy, and money), and participation in various fields. We have discussed these questions on the board, previously, although I suppose we can discuss them, again.
The second question, the one actually broached in the OP, actually is answered by the association with Jewish culture and education. Note that Jews were “overrepresented” among people who attended college, even before college became something that was a standard event through society, following WWII. It goes beyond mere literacy, to a pursuit of education. Among the other groups who I pointed out had a noticeable representation on the SDMB were Catholics. While Catholics, as an overall group, do not have the same dedication to education as the Jewish community, there has always been a segment of Catholic society that has valued education, highly. (What other gorup in the U.S. has founded a similar number of colleges and universities?) People who value education tend to value ideas and the exchange of ideas (and the attacks upon and defenses of ideas). These are the people who are most likely going to show up in a forum dedicated to the advancement of knowledge and the exchange of ideas.
Even when “everyone” gets a chance to learn to read, some will pursue reading beyond that which is necessary to get and hold a job. Such people are more likely to be drawn from a community where reading, discussing ideas, and similar activities are not only encouraged, but simply part of day-to-day life.
There are plenty of Jews who are no more interested in an exchange of ideas than any other person randomly selected from society. (Lord knows there are any number of Catholics uninterested in the world beyond their paycheck and living room.) What one will find, however, is that among those groups where education is promoted, one will find a larger percentage of people who are drawn to fora such as the Straight Dope[sup]®[/sup].
Of course, quoting a specific 19th century author, using words out of context and applying them to political movements that have changed meaning in the last 150 years, does not actually do much to support the idea that I suspect you wish to convey. It simply riles up the impassioned (and generally unthinking) partisans of the extreme right and extreme left to come in and chant slogans at each other, pretty well derailing this thread.
I suspect that if we really wanted to discuss the intelligence of liberals and conservatives (as adjusted for what the words meant and have come to mean over the past 150 years), we ought to open a new thread preferably in the Pit where I don’t have to monitor it.
You sound tired. I’ve read some of those threads too and I’m really not game for going over it, again.
This seems contradictory. No other group has founded a similar number of colleges & universities [than Catholics], yet Jews are more dedicated to education.
When comparing the percentage of Catholics to Protestants (the two clearly dominant groups), Catholics have far more institutions than the “other team.” (Harvard, Yale, and several of the oldest universities were founded as religious institutions, but the number of new religious institutions dwindled over the years (with schools such as Harvard and Yale becoming secular) while the number of explicitly Catholic schools continued to grow even as the Land Grant colleges and similar schools shifted the burden of developing schools from Protestant denominations to the civil government and private non-religious investors.)
On the other hand, Jews have never had anywhere near the percentage of the population to fund large numbers of schools.
Catholics founded schools disproportionate to their (still considerable) resources while Catholic resources dwarfed Jewish resources in an absolute sense.
> “Although it may not be true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true
> that most stupid people are conservative”–John Stuart Mill …
Cite? And a cite in this case is not a link to a website where someone makes the claim that Mill said this. It’s the exact place in one of his books are articles where he said this.
I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say that Jews, at least the Jews I’ve known, are not just educated. More accurate to say they’re passionate about the acquisition and dissemination of knowledge.
They also have a particular mind for arcana and esoterica, so much so that I almost believe sometimes that generations of Talmudic study have created in them a sort of collective unconscious that draws them naturally towards high-volume processing of fact and detail.
The traditional training for European Jewish boys involves not only literacy, but skillfulness in constructing and defending an argument, and in using logic to show that any other position is incorrect. A great many of the important Jewish texts are functionally transcripts of model arguments between adherents of differing positions. The Chosen gives good examples of this training. Although I’m female, and wasn’t brought up in that paradigm, all of its cultural constituents were present in my relationship with my father For example, he encouraged me to present evidence supporting my opinions. Thus, it warms my heart when any of you write “Uh… Cite?”
You lost me here, what did my remarks have overtones of?
I don’t really think I stepped down, at least only somewhat, as you say.
If you look “smart” up in my dictionary it says:
“Characterized by sharp quick thought; bright.”
I think that this would be something that is needed in order to win nobel prizes, win in chess, have high paid jobs, etc.
But appearently the word is understood as meaning that it is something that is only inborn, or something that is the same as IQ. So I changed it to a definition I like better.
Did every poster on the SDMB participate?
Did every habitué of Great Debates participate?
Does rational inquiry preclude having some fun?
Does having fun preclude realistic discussion?
So since this has turned into another “Jews are smarter?” thread, I’ll throw in my two shekels. Jews historically, and this includes recent history, were a literate group spread out among many other cultures, exposed to the many different ideas of many different cultures. At the same time, as “a people” they owned no natural resources. No oil. No sponges. And they often had to pick up and move quickly. Hmmm, what to trade in if not ideas, importing and exporting them and transforming them along the way. Of course intellectualism would be a valued cultural ideal in a group that has nothing but its historic exposure to the world’s ideas as a resource to exploit.
And so yes, while there are many idiot and anti-intellectual Jews, you will indeed find Jews overrepresented in those areas which require a passion for knowledge and understanding. That passion leads them to be among the intellectual elite even of the Neocons, despite the demographics of Jewish politics leaning Leftwards.
Amazingly much of this country’s demographics is suspicious of those who others would call “intellectual” (interestingly enough most of those people themselves only consider themselves to value intellectualism). “Intellectual” is usually used as an insult in this country, not as a term of praise. SD is a place where nerds can be wear thick glasses without fear of teasing … over the fact that they are nerds anyway. There are few other places I’ve found where debate as a means of actually learning something, rather than an opportunity to spout off and read your own words, is valued. And where nerds can frolic in the mist.
