There was a member of this board who was pushing this crap (Any kind of medication are evil drugs!! and if you take them you are a druggie!) Haven’t seen her since the move to Discourse.
To be fair, I think that poster was speaking only for herself and her own addiction. While her views were pretty extreme, I don’t recall her ever applying it to anyone beside herself. If she did, I missed it.
Given that addicts vary just as much as other people there might be some people who really are so prone to substance abuse they really, really can’t have anything at all (and if they need something like major surgery they’ll need a babysitter of sorts to carefully dole out medically necessary doses) but that’s certainly not everybody, or even most.
My PCP takes interns in as assistants so they get some practical non-hospital experience. One of them was just scanning my file, I was in for a routine quarterly check the bloodwork and general overall discussion and he commented that opiods were evil and he was going to refuse to renew my scrip. I told him to open up the electronic file and look at my various xrays and scans. He shut up and signed off on the refills. My primary, standing there told him that pain control is important, that people not just in a car wreck can need pain killers just as much as someone in an emergent facility and not to prejudge people. I was always in the habit of taking by bottle of pills in for a count if they wanted one, and was always ready for an impromptu pee/blood check to make sure I was taking them instead of selling them. [I still do take the bottle when I have to go to the hospital, or a strange doctor.]
I know it sucks, but I agree about no AA meetings, the people there drive me nuts. Back in the late 80s I took a friend of my husband to an AA meeting because he lost his license for a DUI. I sat politely in the back with a book and some coffee, planning on vegging for the hour or so the meeting was scheduled for. I swear, more people were basically demanding I admit to being an alcoholic because I had the temerity to cook with wine and have an occasional drink … just because my ass was on one of their chairs. After that, I sat in the ice cold car outside in the parking lot waiting for him to get out of the meeting.
So, actually he got released from inpatient after only ten days and is now doing some sort of outpatient treatment.
Is ten days enough for anything besides making sure any physical withdrawal symptoms are treated
That’s up to the patient.
My brother went through rehab a couple of times, a month each. One of these times, he started drinking again the day he got out. He finally sobered up on his own.
I was an alcoholic as well. I wound up in the hospital for something, and they detoxed me on the side. They put me into an outpatient therapy program, which I chose to stick with. I’ve been sober ever since. No rehab.
If your friend wants to stay sober, then he’ll stay sober. If not, he won’t. That’s the sad truth of the matter.
I just wanted to say thanks to dalej42 for posting this link about science-based, medical alternatives to AA. It’s really a great article and very informative.
It works, for SOME people. It’s not a cure-all, and it’s not a cure-none, either.
The biggest advantage of AA is that it’s free, it’s nearly everywhere, and there are no waiting lists.
Research has indicated that recovery programs with some record of success tend to have 4 features in common:
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Time Sink - something to do with the time formerly spent getting, maintaining and recovering from “high” - in classic AA go to meetings. Or take up golf, other pastimes.
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External Accountability - external loci of control for decision making until extinction of prior behavioral scripts - in classic AA a sponsor. Otherwise it’s important that it cannot be someone you have an emotional entanglement with i.e. spouse, lover, parent, child, etc. Someone to call you on your BS.
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Experience of the Other/Relativitization of your ego - become less self centered and deflate your core grandiose self - in classic AA do service work, volunteer, etc. Soup Kitchens, other endeavours that are beneficial to others/ the Greater Community rather than self.
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Spiritual Growth/Personal Growth - humanistically or otherwise become a better person - in classic AA get to step 12, and as a result of these Steps, have a spiritual awakening. Commit to and work towards being more honest, more patient, more kind, more giving.
SO: If one wants to recover from addiction, find a resource that has those 4 things in it, and one’s chances of achieving sustained recover go up significantly. Medications (antidepressants, mood stabilizers, antabuse, vivitrol, buprenorphine, etc.) may be beneficial in assisting in the process, but medications themselves are rarely sufficient for recovery.
I’ve been a patient at Hazelden, twice. Once for standard 28 day and once for an extended stay - total 5 months. Been in treatment a total of 3 times. Sober since July 2007. So it’s been a while since I stayed and I’ve heard lots has changed.
When I was there, it was entirely 12 steps/AA based. There were also psychiatrists and psychologists there for those of us who are dual diagnosed (mix of chemical dependency and another not necessarily related mental health issue). Everyone who walks in gets a thorough mental health eval and then add on top of the chemical dependency stuff whatever mental health needs they have as well.
24-72 detox in a physician directed medical wing where you’re housed with the other detoxers, separated from other patients. Once you’re medically cleared, you get assigned to one of their several sex segregated units. There was during my time 4 mens units and 3 womens units plus one extended care, co-ed unit.
28 days (minus your detox days) in your unit - approx 25 people per unit - sort of like a dorm. Mostly shared bedrooms, some private rooms for the snorers, common kitchen and lounge areas.
Wake up at (I think it was) 7 with morning meditation at 7:30. Breakfast in the cafeteria. There was a morning lecture in an auditorium where all attended. Then a group session. Lunch in cafeteria. Afternoon lecture in auditorium. Rest of the afternoons were a mix of meditation days, or physical activity days, or free time where you had access to the health club, swimming pool, yoga classes, all the outdoor trails, frisbee golf, etc. During various afternoons you were scheduled one on one with your counselor and had therapy sessions with a psychologist or other therapist if warranted, etc. Then dinner. Then evening lecture which was always a returning alumnus sharing their story. Nights were always free after lecture. Visiting was Wednesday nights and Sundays. Weekends are free time. One night per week all were shuttled to a local AA meeting for an hour.
After your 28 days are up, they recommend whatever aftercare - halfway house, sober house, etc. Or they might recommend extended care at Hazelden. When I was there the recommended additional 120 days in extended care.
Extended care was much of the same but with more off-site stuff. We went to Walmart once per week. I did the horse therapy thing. We had a couple field trips to malls on a Saturday afternoon. You could get a day pass to go spend time with family.
Shortly after I left a new womens’ extended care unit opened and the co-ed unit I was in became men only.
Again, all 12 steps/AA based.
After that, I stayed in a sober house. All told, I was away from home for 10 months.
I still attend AA regularly, have a sponsor, and I sponsor others. It works for some of us. Others not so much.
While I was there, I got pretty close with 8 people. I’m the only one of the 8 who has stayed sober continuously. I’m also the only one out of the 8 who stuck with AA and the 12 steps the whole time. 2 are sober now (as far as I know) and the other 5 are dead. 3 suicides, one overdose (heroin), and the most recent drank herself to death (official cause was abdominal bleed I believe it was).
Granted, that’s a small sample size, and anecdotal.
Let me know if you have additional questions.
When was this research done? There have been leaps and bounds made in the last 20 years in antidepressants and anti-anxiety drugs.
Also, how was this controlled for? Was a group in a 12-step type program compared to a group not in one, without controlling for factors like medication?
Or was there specifically a study where people were divided into two groups, and EVERYONE was evaluated for medication intervention, and given the best recommendation, and tracked to make sure they took their meds, then, on top of that, one group followed 12-step principles, and one did not?
Click the stanford link. it’s all there, or can be gotten to via their cites/links.
So why can’t we do better than this in 2020? It seems like addiction is still stuck in the era of leeches or bleeding someone.
I’ll accept that AA works for some people. But if alcoholism is a disease, 21st century methods should be the default, right? Once a physician has handled the physical aspects of the withdrawal, is it really ethical to suggest AA? We’ve discussed some of the nutty and perhaps dangerous people you’re likely to meet in AA above.
But, I remain unconvinced that the steps of AA have anything to do with medicine and can indeed do harm. What if people don’t want your amends? Apologies for cheating in your last relationship may not be wanted by the other party who has already moved on. Your high school friend that you abandoned on his birthday to go smoke weed with the cool kids has moved on and is now a happy adult.
Powerless over alcohol? This isn’t Harry Potter. A bottle of Jack Daniels doesn’t float out of the cabinet, open itself and pour itself into your mouth as you’re snoring.
My guess is most people that treat addiction are 12 step evangelicals and thus that’s why the cycle continues.
Because like your statement our society and politicians have decided that tough law enforcement is more of a value than mental health treatment. It’s the message that Defund the Police is attempting to put out (badly by the way) that the police have more than enough guns and riot gear and not enough funding for mental health task. Just lock up alcoholics when they get so bad they affect other people with violence, pubic nuisance or kill someone.
Alcoholism is a disease and there is no “if” as you state, countless health professions keep trying to drive that point home but to a tone deaf public that thinks punishment and personal responsibility are the only choices. How about giving them a hand to help lift themselves up. The AA program is a reaction against a society that would rather look the other way and place blame on people. The AA group recognizes that alcoholics need to help each other because they cannot depend on other people for help due to the nature of alcoholism and its ruining relationships and trust.
Why do people get hung up on AA being a religion, its not. The higher power doesn’t have to be Jesus or whatever god you choose. The higher power is the collective soul of alcoholics banding together to help each other. And its been proven to work over a very long period of time, that is why people keep going back.
This doorknob is my higher power is bullshit woo and that’s yet another reason to cast doubt on AA as anything but nonsense
If you choose a doorknob as your higher power then you really don’t want to become sober. People who do not want to become sober never will they will just continue to wallow in selfishness and make excuses and wag their finger at those fools in AA. I’m not even saying that AA is the only answer, but it is an answer for many.
I was forced to go to AA when I had legal problems and felt the same way. I still drink on occasion and don’t have an issue with it. Still I have meet too many people that do depend on it to just call it bullshit. It works for some, but like me YMMV.
And that’s fine, my issue is it being used as medical treatment, insurance paying thousands of dollars for AA woo shouldn’t be happening in the 21st century
Do you consider psychotherapy “woo”? Is it un-21st century? Should insurance not pay for it?
AA is a form of group therapy that has proven results, whether you like it or not.
“None” is a type of result.
I am not aware that insurance paid for AA in and of itself as every meeting I went to was free. Now I am aware that AA meetings do take place in prison and psychiatric care facilities but I had never heard of insurance paying for them as part of the therapy or in lieu of therapy.
I do feel that the courts do abuse the use of AA meetings as free treatment by forcing people to go as part of their sentencing. And I’ve heard many an AA member state that this is an abuse of the program because AA is meant to be voluntary. I’ve even seen group leaders sign peoples paper that they attended and told them to leave if they truly did not want to be sober. They feel it gives AA a bad rap as being punishment when its charter is to help the willing receive support from their peers without judgement.