This is for czarcasm in Re: serial killers repenting:
[sub]First let me say that in a recent thread there was a link that lead to a test of what religion your beliefs most closely matched. I was !00% Unitarian, 95% Neo-Pagan, 93% Liberal Quaker (I’m not pacifist) and only 68% liberal mainline protestant. However, I’ve attended Bible studies with conservative protestants and listened to their sermons.[/sub]
He goes directly to hell, without passing GO. You do not go to heaven because of your works. I once pointed out that the book of James says that works are important. The teacher responded that was the reason that James was almost left out of the Bible.
I assume you are saying that he accepted Christ as his savior. You see Jesus said “only thru me”. That isn’t something you’ve done, but simply an acceptance of God’s Grace. [sub]see below[/sub] He has got his ticket to heaven.
All sins are equal. Murder is no greater than coveting your neighbor’s ass. A sin is an act of straying from God. Everyone sins and therefore must atone for those sins (that is to be at one again with God). But even this would not be sufficient if Jesus hadn’t died for our sins. Therefore you must accept Jesus as your saviour, which is the only true way to God’s Grace (absolutely amazing isn’t it?).
Those that have never heard of Jesus do not go to hell, but they don’t go to heaven either. They go to Limbo and join everyone who was born before Jesus died on the cross.
[sub]This is designed so that there is no way out, just surrender and accept.[/sub]
At least for me, it seems that religion no longer provides the answers to the questions most people have in life. The are better answered through secular means.
Theologue: Thanks for a great post! As I’m sure you know, since you said in another thread that you’ve lurked for a long time, we could always use another Doper who can help address theological questions. Someone with a background in conservative Protestant theology, aware of the different viewpoints available, and with the flexability and knowledge to see where concervative theology needs to change or is changing would be especially useful and welcome, IMO.
Czarcasm: Not to put words in yBeafy’s mouth, but it seems to me that in Orthodox theology as he’s presented it, the atheist and the serial killer would both be inescapably and eternally confronted with the immediate presence of God. Whether this would be sheer bliss or ultimate agony would depend on the attitudes toward God and oneself cultivated throughout one’s life, but wouldn’t necessarily depend on holding specific beliefs. (It is presumed that one cannot be blase about the immediate presence of God. It’s one of those love-it-or-hate-it things, like liver or modern jazz.)
In much concervative Protestant theology, the idea is much the same, except that God will not force his presence on those who do not desire it. Those who are condemned are cast into utter darkness, but only because they cannot endure the full knowledge of their own dependance and finitude that God’s presence entails. (God as Total Perspective Vortex. :D) Nevertheless, since God is omnipresent, and cannot be fled from even in the deepest pit, those in Hell are at least dimly aware (and tortured by the awareness) of what they could have experienced, but could not in themselves accept. An atheist who discoves his ignorance at death and rejoices enters heaven; one who does not enters hell, of his own volition. Same for the serial killer. (For an imaginative depiction of this theory by a moderate-but-beloved-by-concervatives Christian, read CS Lewis’s The Great Divorce. I’m not a huge fan of Lewis’s thinking, but this is definitely worth reading for the imagery.)
Smartass: I think many problems with theology and Christianity come from maintaining a Kindergarten-Sunday-School-level understanding of God as Big Person. This view isn’t completely unknown in genuine theology, but in much more sophisticated form, and much theology, both ancient and modern, all but abandons the image of God-as-person altogether, or modifes it to such an extent as to be unrecognizeable. My own image of God is probably less concrete and literal than than the Taoist image; although I was for some time convinced this made me categorically heretical, I now realize that isn’t the case. (Though I’m probably still heretical for other reasons. 
)
Man! I seem to be misspelling everyone’s name lately. And this time, it isn’t even four in the morning. Sorry yBeayf.
I think that both of them will achieve some kind of grace. I don’t think that faith and belief are choices, so I don’t think the atheist should be punished at all. Nor do I think the serial killer would be punished for all eternity. And, of course, I’m not really sure. Those are just the beliefs that I seem to hold most days. FWIW, I’m an Episcopalian.
And I was just reading your last post thinking, “Aha! It’s yBeafy! Why Beefy!” It didn’t make any real sense to me, but it gave me a way to pronounce it. 
I’m afraid that’s why I did it, audiobottle. (Did I get that right? <Checks.> I think so. Good.) I misread it that way once, and the pronounciation has stuck in my head ever since. :smack:
Well, not knowing anything about the atheist except that he didn’t believe in God and that he behaved decently in society, I have no idea what his ultimate fate would be. Certainly, if he was one of those sorts of atheist who seems to have a personal grudge against God, I imagine the outcome would be different than an atheist who was never presented with an opportunity to learn of the faith. Beyond that, again, I have no idea. If you’re wanting me to say that yes, he would be damned, or no, he would not, then I’m sorry, I am not going to do so.
As for the serial killer who repents on his deathbed, if the repentance is truly sincere, then yes, it’s very possible that he will be saved. The after-death process of purification through contact with the energies of God will likely be very painful, as he would have much more spiritual damage and corruption than most people, but as long as that little seed of repentance is there, God can do the rest.
yBeayf, how often do you come across atheists that have “never been presented with an opportunity to learn of the faith.”? Do you mean atheists that have never even heard of Christianity, or just people that do not follow your particular sect? As far as the rest of your answer goes, I guess that there is safety in ambiguity. I know that you don’t know, but you do realize that I was just asking for a wild guess based on what you have been taught and what you personally believe or hope? Since you gave no weight whatsoever to either side(Heaven or Hell), your post actually makes it sound as if athiests might have a 50/50 chance of making it. Is this the idea you are trying to put across?
In my opinion, based upon my own experiences with the Bible, forgiveness, love for a child, redemption, grace, prayer and other spiritual moments and encounters, I think that even the serial killer who is not repentent will find herself or himself in the presence of God. The horrors and evils of life on earth will be removed along with all other sorrows.
And I think that maybe that’s the reason we shouldn’t judge people so harshly. The more that science discovers about body chemistry and how it compels us and causes dementia and perhaps contributes to personality disorders, the more we realize how little we understand our fellow human beings individually.
As for the OP: In the late 1950’s, my high school American literature class laughed at Jonathan Edwards’ sermon Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God because it used the fear of hell to scare people into church membership. All of us kids were church members, but the idea of a vengeful God was far from what we had been taught. “Hellfire and brimstone” sermons were definitely considered backwards and uneducated. They were in contrast to most of the teachings in the New Testament.
You have an unusual view of atheists. They don’t believe in God. It’s hard to have a personal grudge against someone who doesn’t exist. (If you don’t get the Xmas present you want, would you have a grudge against Father Xmas?!)
And it seems a little strange that you don’t know what is required to avoid Hell. If a well-behaved chap studies the facts and says there is no evidence of God, what happens to him?
Apparently a mass murderer can make it into Heaven with a last-minute repentance - what sort of behaviour does God require from His worshippers?
So nobody goes to Hell?
Have you not read the Old Testament? 
God slaughters priest of opposing religions.
He commands Abraham to tie his son to an altar and kill him as an offering.
He kills every first-born child in Egypt.
He destroys all life on Earth (apart from Noah and a few animals).
Is this not ‘Hellfire and Brimstone’? (I expect the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah would agree. :eek: )
Again, not to speak for yBeayf, who’s doing fine on his own, but I just can’t let you get away with that Czar. Surely you know that it’s a fallacy to define an unknown probability as 50%! :dubious:
What is required: repentance of your sins and acceptance of Jesus as the sacrifice that redeemed you of those sins. Neither of these things are immediately evident when you look at a person, so that’s why yBeayf can say he (she?) doesn’t know who is going to Hell.
And since you didn’t get it last time: Salvation under Protestant Christianity has nothing to do with your actions, since nobody can behave perfectly 100% of the time. Salvation is only contingent on a relationship with Jesus, which everybody is capable of.
It just was by way of example, in that there are multiple factors that come into play, and that judgment is reserved to God, who will take all of them into account.
No, the point I’m trying to put across is that I have no idea, and so am unwilling to speculate. The Church is the only guaranteed method of salvation, full stop. With everything else, you takes your chances, and I have no idea what the odds are. Maybe all atheists will be damned. Maybe they’ll all be saved. How should I know? It’s honestly not an issue I spend a lot of thought on.
I know atheists don’t believe in God. I was referring to the type of person who, while claiming not to believe in God, seems to hate God more than disbelieve in Him.
I know the only sure way not to go to hell is through the Church. That doesn’t mean that everybody else is damned, and I will not speculate on who is and who isn’t.
As long as we are making a sincere effort at metanoia (turning-around, or repentance), and have faith in God, He will do the rest. He will never force us to be saved, but will never refuse us His grace as long as we are receptive to it. There’s no list of “do this, this, and this to be saved”; it’s a process each of us have to work out, with the assistance of God and His Church.
glee, see my comments to Smartass about maintaining a Kindergarten-level understanding of theology. Universalism is an ancient and well-defined (though minority) tradition within the church. And many Christian and Jewish thinkers understand those stories non-historically and/or with a different understanding of God than “Big Person” (e.g., one in which all that happens is in some sense God’s will, but God is not the “agent” causing cities to be destroyed). The Christianity you keep arguing against in this thread is made of straw.
Again, I wasn’t asking about yBeayf’s absolute knowledge, I was asking about yBeayf’s opinions and hopes. It would be like someone asking me my opinion as to whether or not it will snow this winter in Portland. I could either decline to answer by saying I do not know if it will snow, or I can use the knowledge I have acquired over the years and make an educated guess-there is a good chance that it will snow in Portland this winter.
See the difference?
Well, it goes beyond that. Even with somebody who repeatedly and publicly states that they don’t believe in God, or that even if He did exist, they would not worship Him, I cannot say if they are going to hell or not. Even with somebody like Hitler, who manifestly spent much of his life working for evil, and died by his own hand, I don’t know what his ultimate fate is. It’s not my place to say. Even when the Church anathematizes somebody, they are not condemning that person to hell; rather, they are stating that that person has cut themselves off from the church, and therefore their fate is commended to God.
In Orthodox Christianity, salvation is contingent on both faith and works; either is useless without the other. In the case of the repentant serial killer, who did not have time to cleanse his soul with works in this life, he will have the opportunity to do so in the next, as long as that grain of repentance is there.
The problem with that analogy is that experience and knowledge cannot be gained in this area until one is dead oneself. As things stand, even knowing 1,000 people who died won’t get me one whit closer to predicting where #1001 is going to end up.