What happens to the Jewish people in the Christian apocalypse?

[Pork_Rind]

@DWMarch

Sixty six percent of them get wiped out (66.6 really, ermagerd)

Well, you know, 66.7% if you round properly.

[P-man]

Christian with Jewish spouse here. I don’t believe in an apocolypse; like both liberal and conservative Christians are wont to do, I’m going to cherry pick a verse: “The kingdom of God is within you”. Also a more modern quote: “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.” The latter, often attributed to Martin Luther King, is actually from 19th century Unitarian minister and abolitionist Theodore Parker. My take is when there are enough people working for justice, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, or whatever, the “Kingdom of God” will come about. Maybe that’s why Jesus didn’t know when it would happen.

[DerekMichaels00]

this does not belong in a “great debates” forum.

The idea of a second coming occuring in our lifetimes is pure fringe:
From Pew, on the subject:

Among those who say that the Bible is the literal word of God, just 37% expect Christ to return to earth in their lifetime.

(that amounts to a small minority of people, even before the hows/whys)

The fact I saw two threads about this subject pop up tell me the Islam sympathizers are trying to deflect from recent criticism of that religion’s society’s anti-Semitism, by saying “Evangelicals don’t like Jews either.” Except Evangies aren’t going around blowing themselves up over this, nor are there groups and governments around the world seeking to such aims.

Compare to Iran, which openly threatens to wipe out the Jewish State, bringing back the Madhi, has Islamist groups, and there tons of other apocalyptic Islamist groups out there.

[Jonathan_Chance]

Derek,

Not every thread is an excuse to hijack about Islam. Cut it out.

[Voyager]

@buddha_david

I still find Biblical prophecies fascinating, though. Regarding the role of the Jews, there’s the passage from Revelation 7 in which God seals the foreheads of 144,000 “sons of Israel”, specifically 12,000 from each Jewish tribe. (The sticky wicket is that 10 of the 12 tribes have been “lost” since the Assyrian Captivity; therefore, the descendants of those tribes would probably have no idea they were Jewish, and would probably be Christian or even Muslim instead.) Later, in Revelation 14, the Chosen 144,000 appear on Mount Zion before the Lamb of God singing, “I’m a Pepper, you’re a Pepper, he’s a Pepper, she’s a Pepper…” …or something like that.

Since the “lost” 10 tribes no doubt got absorbed into the conquering empire, as usual (see lots of Sumerians around today?) I’d strongly suspect they’d be Muslim. Which should freak the hell out of the anti-Islamic Christians.

[Kimstu]

@DerekMichaels00

The idea of a second coming occuring in our lifetimes is pure fringe:
From Pew, on the subject:

Among those who say that the Bible is the literal word of God, just 37% expect Christ to return to earth in their lifetime.

(that amounts to a small minority of people, even before the hows/whys)

Minority yes, but not small enough to be a negligible “fringe”. If 37% of Biblical literalists expect a second coming of Christ in their lifetimes, and (also from your cite) 62% of white evangelical Protestants are Biblical literalists, and 24% of all Americans are white evangelical Protestants, then that 37% of 62% of 24% is about 5.5% of all Americans, or more than 1 in 20.

Actually, though, your cite also says that 20% of all US Christians, who make up about 83% of the total US population, expect Christ’s return in their lifetimes. That 20% of 83% is a comparatively whopping 16.6%, or nearly one in every six Americans.

So no, while belief in an imminent second coming is a minority view, it’s nowhere near small enough to be dismissed as “pure fringe”.

[DerekMichaels00]

@Kimstu

Minority yes, but not small enough to be a negligible “fringe”. If 37% of Biblical literalists expect a second coming of Christ in their lifetimes, and (also from your cite) 62% of white evangelical Protestants are Biblical literalists, and 24% of all Americans are white evangelical Protestants, then that 37% of 62% of 24% is about 5.5% of all Americans, or more than 1 in 20.

Actually, though, your cite also says that 20% of all US Christians, who make up about 83% of the total US population, expect Christ’s return in their lifetimes. That 20% of 83% is a comparatively whopping 16.6%, or nearly one in every six Americans.

So no, while belief in an imminent second coming is a minority view, it’s nowhere near small enough to be dismissed as “pure fringe”.

even then, you can’t make Christ return because its never gonna actually happen, so they’re believing in the impossible.

[Kimstu]

@DerekMichaels00

even then, you can’t make Christ return because its never gonna actually happen, so they’re believing in the impossible.

I don’t think this thread is really addressing whether Christian doctrines concerning the imminence of the apocalypse and Second Coming are realistic predictions, but rather the issue of what Christians who believe them consider to be the role of Jews in fulfilling them.

And if nearly one in six Americans believe these doctrines, then ISTM that their content has fairly important consequences in our society whether or not they’re realistically likely ever to come true.

[tomndebb]

@DerekMichaels00

even then, you can’t make Christ return because its never gonna actually happen, so they’re believing in the impossible.

This is threadshitting.

The discussion is not “Will Christ return?” but “Given a belief that Christ will return, what are the views of Christians regarding the fate of Jews?”

Your opinion is not that of “Christians,” however they are defined, so your personal beliefs are irrelevant to this thread.

Pay attention to the actual thread topic and do not wander in, inserting your own irrelevant beliefs. If you wish to debate (or assert) the unlikelihood that Christ will return, go open a new thread.

[ /Moderating ]

[Hector_St_Clare]

I’m speaking only for myself, not for any particular church. (I’m a highly disaffected member of my church, and it doesn’t have a teaching on the apocalypse anyway).

1. I think, or at least hope, that in the grand scheme of eternity, Jesus will draw all things to himself, as he said in the Gospel of John. I think some kind of universal salvation is most in keeping with the nature of God, and I don’t think the ability to repent and change ends when we die. (An entity incapable of repentance would be incapable of free will, and therefore not really a human being any more).

2. That being said, I don’t think Jews have any special status that atheists, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Wiccans, Hindus, or anyone else doesn’t have. Inasmuch as none of them recognizes Jesus as divine, they’re all wrong. I have faith that someday they will realize they were wrong and joyfully submit themselves to Christ.

[BobLibDem]

I don’t think there is a universal Christian belief regarding this. It seems to me that in general, Christians are becoming more liberal in their beliefs regarding who gains salvation. Fifty years ago, I would wager that most would say that those who weren’t in their particular sect were doomed. Most might agree that all good Christians are rewarded at the judgment. Now it seems that more believe that even the just non-Christians, be they Jews, Muslims, atheists, or whatever, are deserving of entry to heaven. So I don’t think it’s as simple as “reject Jesus, go to hell” as it used to be and in my opinion, that’s for the better.

[truthseeker3]

@Czarcasm

Well, it wasn’t that obvious the first time around, but I guess that’s because the “messiah” that had been picked out by the Christian sect didn’t fit the prophesies clearly laid out in the Jewish texts. I think that any return of that “messiah” would be about as connected to the Jews as sudden appearance of Apollo. If the Christian “messiah” makes an appearance in the fashion moist major sects believe he will, then it will go against the promises of the deity the Jews worship.

I think there might be some confusion about my previous post. I’m a Christian (specifically catholic) responding to your tangential question about whether Christians would recognize the Jewish messiah. The quote I posted about how obvious the messiah would be is from a Jewish website. If someone manages to establish an earthly paradise in my lifetime, I would have to acknowledge that as a pretty substantial undertaking. But I doubt that’s actually going to happen.

[Commodore]

@watchwolf49

My understanding is that Christians are waiting for the second coming of the Messiah … Jews are waiting for the one-and-only coming of the Messiah … once the Messiah comes, both are saved.

Jews ? what are they.
People of God.
Hebrews ?
Israel ?

The true Christian is a People of God.
The true dedicated Christians is an Israel= servant of God.
Jesus Christ said and did everything that he had to do, if people are looking for the second coming they have not Christ Jesus in them, it’s not a thing to look forward to, because the works of hellfire comes first, this will put all to the test and all the nonsense will be burnt up, then reality will kick in, God wins ! worldly cunning is seen for what it truly is and it will sticking out like dogs balls how stupid and foolish people were being mislead by the works of Satan.

[Commodore]

@BobLibDem

I don’t think there is a universal Christian belief regarding this. It seems to me that in general, Christians are becoming more liberal in their beliefs regarding who gains salvation. Fifty years ago, I would wager that most would say that those who weren’t in their particular sect were doomed. Most might agree that all good Christians are rewarded at the judgment. Now it seems that more believe that even the just non-Christians, be they Jews, Muslims, atheists, or whatever, are deserving of entry to heaven. So I don’t think it’s as simple as “reject Jesus, go to hell” as it used to be and in my opinion, that’s for the better.

Salvation is about abiding in Christ Jesus, the point is at the end, it’s up to our Lord and Saviour who has the say who goes to Heaven.
No one can run about boasting that he is going to Heaven, that’s a worldly and moronic, but he can say it’s the Hope that he has and knows that’s the goal.
Jesus say that men will come boasting in his Name, but Jesus know peoples heart if they are true.
Paradise is not Heaven, when Jesus said on the Cross to old mate, you shall be with me this day in Paradise ? Jesus did not go to Heaven that day now did he ?

[Skammer]

@Hector_St_Clare

1. I think, or at least hope, that in the grand scheme of eternity, Jesus will draw all things to himself, as he said in the Gospel of John. I think some kind of universal salvation is most in keeping with the nature of God, and I don’t think the ability to repent and change ends when we die. (An entity incapable of repentance would be incapable of free will, and therefore not really a human being any more).

This is pretty much my personal belief as well. Jesus died to save all humankind, not just for those who believe in Him; and God’s desire is to reconcile all humankind to himself. I think ultimately all people will succumb to God’s irresistible love, in this world or the next.

2. That being said, I don’t think Jews have any special status that atheists, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Wiccans, Hindus, or anyone else doesn’t have. Inasmuch as none of them recognizes Jesus as divine, they’re all wrong. I have faith that someday they will realize they were wrong and joyfully submit themselves to Christ.

I agree with this, except that I do believe that Jews have a special place in God’s heart as the chosen people, people of the original covenant. God will not break his promises to them.

[Commodore]

@Skammer

This is pretty much my personal belief as well. Jesus died to save all humankind, not just for those who believe in Him; and God’s desire is to reconcile all humankind to himself. I think ultimately all people will succumb to God’s irresistible love, in this world or the next.

I agree with this, except that I do believe that Jews have a special place in God’s heart as the chosen people, people of the original covenant. God will not break his promises to them.

But Jews are not a race.
Hebrew is a race.
The OT covenant was to Israel = the servants of God.
How can God brake a promise ? you ether serve God or you don’t, it’s simple as that.
People naturally turn away from God, it’s our Sinful nature, history proves this even with the Jewish history proven facts, it turned away from God and got kicked out of the land, they failed ! for one reason.
The Son of God came and said as such and the Christians became the new Israel in Christ Jesus.

God is always the winner and he has always sorted out the morons in the days of the flood and next up is the Fire to sort out the wicked, all people will go through it, and it’s only due to Sin or better put disregarding their Sin, they have forgotten or rejected such understanding or tried to replace God with man as there god, sorry to say it will not work.
Political Correctness will not work, as it’s just a madness of mans works and that’s just as filthy rags.